I have a gentleman posting on my site that is inquiring about people with built F series engines. He has asked If I know any more. I directed him here, but I was wondering if some of you wouldn't mind checking out his posts on my site. They are in the "Tech help" section under the topic of Web Cams. I am not trying to "steal" members, as most of you here know me, but checking out his posts my give some insight to his situation. Any help will be appreciated.

Here is the link: http://www.collectiveracing.net/cgi-...=ST;f=10;t=368

*Question in next post:

I answered his question on my board, but was specifically asking for other info So if any of you have any suggestions feel free to add them here.


[Modified by 2point6, 2:17 PM 2/6/2003]

 

Hello Scott ( and/or Collective Racing et al.)

I have read about your car and admire your NA setup. I'm most
particularly
interested in your Web Cams. I have a 2000 Accord Coupe 5spd EX.
http://www.cardomain.com/member_....e_type_
query=make%3DHonda&model_brand_query=model%3DAccor d&tree=Honda%20Accord
Pardon the typos.

I have been seriously considering an all NA F23A build-up. If you plan
to
criticize my engine choice stop, I have heard it all before.
Currently
their isn't anyway to install an H22 in a gen 6 and maintain all the
functioning engine mounts and the cruise control. I daily drive my
Accord
in the summer so this compromise won't due.

How happy are you with your web cams?
Did they[web] pic your specs for lift and duration? How durable has the
regrind been?

What kind of trouble did you have with the stroker crank? Did you do
the
assembly into the block yourself?

I live in Ohio and am trying to find a shop to help build my engine.
I
imagine no one shop will ideally complete each part.

My plans included:
bored and honed block(.030" over? will this work on a Honda?)
Balanced and knife edged crank.
Stock Rods. F23A after-market?
Custom F23A 10.5 or 11:1 pistons.
Stock Cam. w/ cam gear( is Webcams a good solution, I'm leery of a
regrinds?)
Ported head (JG or DPR East, Toledo Ohio?)
Extrude hone intake manifold.
Ported stock Exhaust manifold or header? (not many F23A headers)
Under-drive pulleys and lighter flywheel.

I'm currently wearing out my stock pressure plate from hard driving.
Do you
know if a stock prelude pressure plate will interchange into an Accord
F23
tranny and work with a new stock Accord clutch disc? Cost savings is
my
objective here.

I'm constantly looking for others knowledgeable about tuning Accords.
Despite my ridiculously bad grammar I am a Materials Engineer and am
always
looking for more then just candy flash to improve my car.

I hope to hear some suggestions from you.

Thanks,
Chad Lacher
chadlacher@sbcglobal.net

P.S. Your web-site is awesome, love the soundFX.

 

My thoughts: keep in mind i have not done this big of a job, and i am really just chiming in with some opinions. Correct me please if they're wrong.


-sounds feasible, .030" may be a little too much. i suggest working the block just enough to freshen it up. A good local machine shop probably wouldnt be too expensive.
- I have not seen this done to a F series, but couldnt hurt (done correctly). This could also be performed by a good machine shop.
- Crower 4340's are awesome and not to expensive. Part # B93747B
- Visit JE's website and print off a custom piston order form. They can make whatever you want (within reason), but you dont get a price until you fax the form to them.
- Crower can also do custom regrind. You just need to contact them. Skunk2 gear.
- Also look into Portflow for good work. Local shops work wonders and can be cheaper. There's a shop near me that does <U>perfect</U> work for a decent price.
-
- Check out Chikara. I know your thinking cheap, but their stepped units are awesome for na builds. Plus, they are made by Hedman, great quality.

My thoughts. sorry for the long reply.

 

Anybody else?

 

Dont know about the f23a, but the f22b1 can only be bored over .020".

Pretty impressive goals but I wouldnt put all that work into an F series and not go FI.

 

Yeah I definately understand his predicament since he can't swap in an H22 but an N/A build like that kinda seems like a lost cause on an F23. just my opinion so please don't flame me for saying that, But i seriously think FI would probably be better.

 

I posted this thread orginally on 2.6's board.

I've ruled out H22A because of the mish-mash of parts issues.
As for Forced induction, the FI rought is just as expensive as NA 3-4g and I'm really looking for a never need additional tune kinda set-up and I don't think a turbo will do that for me.

 

I'm very interested in your build up and how it goes. I can't help you much except for one thing. the F23 has a Nikasil cyl liner. Hondas reboring limit on the block is 0.25mm or 0.01in max. oversized pistons means resleeving.

 

does the F23 have the same bore as the H23? Do they have interchangable parts?

 

F23 is 86x97
H23 is 87x95
H22 is 87x90.7

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with building a NA F-series engine. They may not be the ultimate engine for the Accord, but they'll do the job. I'm building my F22B2 because I ended up with a lot of money tied up in "bolt-ons", and I didn't want to start over. Here's what I'm putting together: F22B2, Port Flow head with Ferrea valve train, Wiseco 11:1 pistons, Crower billet rods, balanced crank, Web cam with STR cam gear, Injen intake, Gude Bullfrog throttle body, Knology ignition, DC Sports SS header with Greddy EVO cat-back exhaust, Apexi SAFC, and I'm running it all through my Level Ten prepped automatic transmission. My car is also my daily driver. Here's my opinion on your set-up, for what it's worth.

1) Unless I was going to resleeve the block, I'd just clean up the cylinders and drop in some high compression pistons.

2) Don't bother with the knife edged crank. Engine builders supposedly knife edge cranks to prevent oil sloshing at high rpm's. The F-series engines will not rev high enough to see the benefit.

3) Go with the aftermarket rods. - Crower

4) Je or Wiseco can make the pistons. Check with Race Engineering.

5) Web Cams makes a good product; I let them choose the grind for my application. My mechanic said that he has had no problems with regrinds.

6) I'll second the recommendation for Port Flow. Call Tom, he'll hook you up.

7) Spend money on a good intake and exhaust system. They can make all the difference in the world in an NA motor.

8) Extrude Hone

9) I might avoid the lightened crank pulley; there have been reports of problems.

Do a search for any companies you plan to do business with, it could save you some money and frustration. Good luck.

 

actually the main benefit of knife-edge crank is to allow the crank to spin more freely. when you knife-edge a crank it cuts through the pressurized air in the bottom of the block easier.

 

" In any engine, oil is constantly draining down into the pan from the top and being sloshed up from the bottom. When the counterweights of the crank strike this oil, there is a resulting power loss."

"Knife-edging reduces power lost from hitting the oil and also removes several pounds of weight from the crank, allowing higher RPM with reliability. "

Quotes taken from PAECO 2003-2004 catalog.

"Pressurized Air"


[Modified by RABBIT9, 10:49 PM 2/7/2003]

 

RABBIT9, i didnt say that your statement was false, i simply said that knife-edging reduces aerodynamic drag in the crankcase. the knife-edged crank is for both of these reasons; to reduce aerodynamic drag and to reduce drag and the weight from oil on the shaft.

keep going...

BTW: learned this from Tom Monroe, "Engine Builders Handbook", instructor of automotive engineering and technologies division.


[Modified by carolinaACCORD, 7:41 PM 2/7/2003]

 

My main reason for knifeedging was that I planned to have the crank balanced anyway so I figured going all the way wouldn't add much more time to the project. I wanted every oppertunity to allow my engine to rev up as fast as it could.

 

I also planned to avoid the crower rods because I heard they were much heavier then stock. And since I don't plan going much past the factory redline I doubt I will ever break a stock rod.

 

Rabbit: Why did you opt to build the f22b2? Why dont you get a head from an f22b1 engine and build that. If you are going to build the f series motor v-tec would be benefical to you as you would want to get as much power as your possibly could then get an v-afc drop vtec some and then tune the cars a/f ratio. Personaly if i was going to build the f-series i would build the f22b1. You also might want to consider a high flow cat and an intake manifold for your setup now. I wish you the best of luck with your build up. make sure you break that thing in properly and let us know your results.

 

WhoNeedsVtec: This engine has been an ongoing saga. My original block got scrapped when some dillhole at the shop busted the heat shield boss off the engine block (this is a VERY long story - I'll skip to the chase for now). I was contemplating going FI at the time, so the non-vtec engine seemed like the better choice and my current mechanic just happened to have a complete F22B2 engine(97' vintage with 67K original miles ) lying in his shop that he let me have for $100. We both know that there's more to v-tec than just the head, and by the time I decided to go NA, I wanted to spend the money on quality internals. This won't be an all out street warrior(right now), so the gains should be good enough.

By the way, the intake manifold is being port matched(Tom at Port Flow told me that was really all the effort I should put into it), and I'm smoking a Straight Pipe.

I'm currently looking for a good tuner with a dyno in the Augusta, Georgia area.

 

what a good deal.

rabbit9, how much are you paying for the Portflow job?


[Modified by carolinaACCORD, 5:45 PM 2/8/2003]

 

CSN motorsports in Marysville, OH will build you a very fast engine from an F23A...He just built me a prototype for my car...

 

The Port Flow job is a little on the high side: $900 for the head work + $600 for the Ferrea valve train = $1500. I don't know if the Ferrea parts are worth it for a low rpm engine, but I figured that I might as well do it right while I've got the engine torn down.

 

from what i'm told the F22 cant be overbored. The sleeves have some sort of fiber in them. Also you cant use forged pistons on the stock sleeves. Forged pistons are much harder then the factory sleeves, and will tear them up. JE makes pistons for the F22, along with a few other reputable companies. Crower makes rods. As for camshafts they dont make ****. The only camshafts you can get for and F22 is a regrind. I unfortunatly am going to have to get a regrind, because of this. I talked to a few people who work for companies that make billet cams. A few of the companies told me, if i sent them my stock cam, they can use those dimensions to make a billet cam for the F22, to any specs i want. The downside is that every place quoted me from $900-$1400 for this. Hope some of the info helps.

 

The f22b1 can be bored over

No nicosil liners in the F's


[Modified by niedejb, 6:55 PM 2/12/2003]

 

CSN motorsports in Marysville, OH will build you a very fast engine from an F23A...He just built me a prototype for my car...


Do you have contact info for them? I'm only a few hours away north.
How much for the prototype?