I mean, at first, this sounds like a dumb question. Of course they do. But really, A lot of people in the states have firm grasps of physics, are knowledgeable about engine dynamics and know how to make things faster. But it just seems those darn easterners have the one-up constantly. Drag racing, road racing, Moto...
I mean to have an 8 sec Skylines that is also a roadracing champ, that's just insane.
Could it just be that they have products faster, I don't think so because we can make custom parts, even if you're not in the upper eichelons of racing budgets.

I dunno, I was thinking about this. any thoughts?


[Modified by Pelican, 12:30 AM 12/30/2002]

 

In Japan, their smartest people work on cars, in the US, the smartest people work on weapons, and hicks design the cars.

 

I bet you the Japs have 2 second automatic Integras.. no joke, lol

 

You have to realize a few things about the Japanese car market before taking their tuner car examples and trying to directly apply them here.

1) New cars in Japan cost very little relative to the mean disposable income, meaning if you have a parking space and all the other necessary things to purchase one, you can get a very nice example for not much money. Hence people all over driving ridiculously hooked up cars, since the vehicle itself and the modifications are really not comparable in income percentage to our economics.

2) An extension of #1. Used cars cost even less in Japan, relative to new examples, than they do pretty much anywhere in the world. Depreciation value there is ridiculously high due to their unique vehicle registration and operation rules, as well as method of resale (largely auction driven instead of private selling). For instance, I just went to an auction site and found a used, mildly modded 1999 Skyline GTR V-Spec for sale for 4,300,000 Yen, or about $36k US. Taking into account the difference in disposable income and other factors, and the point here is that fast cars are CHEAP to the average Japanese consumer.

3) Because of #1 and 2, there is a HUGE market for serious performance, both off the showroom floor and through aftermarket tuners. There is also a large market here, but it tends to focus on the smaller consumables and not the $10k engine upgrade setups, which form a much larger percentage of the market there than here. In short, most of the vehicles in Japan are nice to begin with, and many are heavily modified on top of that. Hence pleny of stupid fast cars rolling down their heavily congested streets.

4) The Skyline you were talking about is probably a JGTC car, or some derivative thereof. The US has no complimentary racing league, which basically allows teams to take a flagship performance street car and modify it to death. These cars may look a bit like their street cousins, but they are pure race cars with either 300hp or 500hp on tap, and that's with restrictors. End result: most aftermarket tuners have incredible rolling test beds for serious racing modifications, and hence their parts are VERY effective at providing huge increases in performance. The lack of such series in America means most tuner shops have very little racing experience, which is irreplacable in terms of overall performance knowledge and development. Basically their tuner shops and manufacturers are likely to have several years experience with developing the car you own in a highly competitive series, and ours almost certainly aren't.


So in a sense, we are comparing apples to oranges. Of course we are also glossing over the many acheivments Americans have made in automotive performance and racing, but that's a whole 'nother argument. Basically what our aftermarket is good at is building mildly tuned street cars, while theirs is better at building full effort race cars. Put examples of both into instrumented performance tests, and it's no surprise which will come out on top most often.

 

Americans work an average of 1,966 hours annually. That’s nearly two weeks more per year than Japan, and more than any other industrialized country. Americans are, statistically speaking, the hardest working people in the world.

 

"do a half-assed job, thats the american way!(or somethin like that)" -sherry bobbins

 

This reminds me of a great American movie... Office Space

 

BEAN COUNTERS and INSURANCE companies, they have the final say on what performance/rates you will pay for a car. A good example is the Lancer, WRX, ect... why do you think they have been castrated soooo bad....

 

Care to elaborate?

Stock - who happens to be a BEAN COUNTER

 

By "Bean Counter" I believe that he is referring to all the accountants and the old farts who happen to reside on the board of directors at a lot of domestic car companies. These people don't give a **** about performance because all they care about is the bottom line and what law suits will arise from doing what. That is the nature of our American business society. Performance cars do sell, but only to a certain extent. The average Joe uses his/her car to get from point a to point b, bitching about the increasing gas prices and the constantly rising insurance rates.

Also, the quality of Japanese vehicles has a lot to do with a custom that they call the "Shaken" This is a Japanese inspection, and it occurs three years after the purchase of a new car and two years from then on out. Basically, if a car does not pass the shaken, it will not be allowed on the road, in addition to the fact that it will bring dishonor to the owner who didn't pass. Now, this inspection is not like one of our US inspections, where they stick the sniffer in the tail pipe, kick the tires and move on. No, this inspection involves a highly certified mechanic going over every detail of the car meticulously with a fine tooth comb. A little leak of oil- you don't pass. Need new shocks?- you don't pass. Basically, the bottom line is that if there is anything wrong with the car whatsoever, even if it is something pretty minor, it won't pass. The shaken is a big ordeal, and it was designed for two purposes: to ensure the quality of the Japanese vehicles, as well as to generate revenue and discourage car use in the heavily congested cities.

 

Only on paper.
You have to remember that time spent at work != time spent working.

 

yeah the corporate accountants get final say in a large part of the car design process. look at any car of about 30k and under and you will see decisions made based on cost and not quality. prime example is tires. the OEM manufacture doesnt care what tire goes on the car. it's not a warranty issue. nobody buys a car based on what tires come on it stock, and if they wear out in 15k - 20k it is little reflection on the overall quality of the car, especially if the owner gets good wear out of the next set.

the other big thing about japaneese/foreign cars is the life cycle of the platform. while almost all foreign car makers go through complete redesigns of a car model approximately every 5 years. american car makers tend to keep a car platform considerably longer. the Chevy cavalier has been virtually unchanged for about 10 years. the Ford mustang is on the same basic platform it was on in 1979. the GM pushrod V8 350 is just about the exact same motor it was in 1952. by contrast, the B-series motor was only in production about 15 years.

 

Good elaboration. This thread has proven an interesting read.

Now I just need to get myself on one of those Board of Directors and start making some damm changes!!

 

I disagree. Speaking as an engineer, we really do spend an excessive amount of time at work in this country. Most engineers would be happy to go back to a 40-hour work week, instead of the unpaid overtime they have now.

The reason American products suck is because of bad management. You can see examples of horrible American management all over, from Firestone to Worldcom to Enron, and these are just the tip of the iceberg. Here, it's ok, encouraged even, for company executives to cook the books, screw the company, stockholders, and employees, run the company into the ground, and then use his ill-gotten fortune to build a $15 million mansion in Florida, where state law prevents them from taking your primary home when you declare bankruptcy. Why one of the thousands of disgruntled, screwed-over Enron or Worldcom employees didn't drive over to Florida and shoot one of those executives, I don't know, considering how frequently other people snap in this country and shoot people.

This management is what makes companies engineer everything based on cost and profit maximization, instead of using any sense of ethics to actually give the customer a quality product for their money. Enron-style stuff couldn't happen in Japan, because people there think a little more about doing things for the good of the whole, instead of just greedily doing things for themselves.

 

I think americans are lazy...period. IN other words they try to do things as little as possible just to past inspection and nothing beyond. I was working at this place, the workers there would leave the machine running and go take a smoking break. When the product was bad they try to find a way to hid it and send it as good. Another problem I see is that working in a group if they can boss someone around to clean up they will, so they don't have to. I really can't say anything good or bad about japanese stlye of working because I have never worked in one.

 

According to a friend of mine who goes to japan regularly to buy/exporty cars back here, the 'shaken' is done on cars every 6 months after the first three years.