What's up guys, this is probably my first topic in the boost forum so go easy on me please.

I have a good friend with a 2000 Civic Si that was running 12psi with a Jackson Racing Supercharger on stock internals and the car ran strong and was good for numerous consistent 12.97 passes at the strip.

Anyways the motor finally gave out at 85K (50K of which was 6psi, 10K at 12psi) so he's now faced with rebuilding the motor to handle the abuse that gives it.

He wanted to do up the entire motor. Full headwork with P&P, stainless valves, valetrain, retainers, blah blah. Block done up with new pistons, rods, knife-edging the crank, and resleeving the cylinders.

Here's the problem:

The motor is currently at a so-so machinist who says for $4,500.00 he'll do every possible thing to the motor including all of the above and porting the intake manifold (the Jackson manifold!), port-matching the TB, etc.

There's a killer machine shop in the ATL area that said they will do the motor up with Darton sleeves for $6,600.00.

He only has $4,500.00.

So here's the choice he will have to make:

1. Go all-out with this so-so guy with a checkered past in building Hondas.
2. Compromise some of the build-up parts for a solid build-up with less "stuff" actually being done.

Let me add a few more things too. The motor was running on a stock ECU with V-AFC tuning. He plans on goinf Hondata, so tuning issues will be much better.

Here's what I proposed to him:

I told him to ditch everything else and focus on his bottom end. I told him if it were mine I'd go with the better shop and get the rods, pistons, and the Darton sleeves and go 84.5mm or even 85mm since the full sleeves will allow more than the stockies, right?

He was also trying to go 9:1 CR, but I asked him why he'd go that low when his boost is basically staying the same at 12psi. We already know that the motor ran really good for a while with the stock 10.2:1 CR with stock ****, so why go a full 1.2 CR lower? I said I'd go no lower than 9.5:1 because the boost stays the same. 9.5:1 CR with a bigger 84.5-85mm bore with T sleeves would certainly net him more power (tuned!) than his old set-up and surely be more solid.

So would you sacrifice a built-up head for a solid bottom end?

My opinion is yes because we already know that the head was flowing fine, and this headwork from this "guy" would be questionable at best IMO. Besides the motor blew due to a cracked piston ring landing, not anything head related.

Well?

Oh and last thing:

He wanted to also shoot a small 30 shot on top of that 12psi too. Yeah he's a little crazy.



TIA!

 

since you are in ATL, you need to shoot down to Covington and talk to John Kaufman at KMS Engine Development, http://www.honda-performance.com, he did some of my machine work and the work was excellent, and is currently working on JG Luders engine for the Gumball 3000. i highly suggest this shop, and since it probably only about 30-45 min away from you, it's well worth talking to them

 

Tom, i know which shop you are talking about and think he stay FAR away from there.
I agree that he should just do resleeved block, flat top JE pistons 10.0 or so, eagle rods and full balance.
If he does the head ...try portflow, import builders or ericksracing... they seem to do the best work.
That car should be quick after some work...then get him to go to Motorvations in alabam and have it tuned with hondata... jim is the best.
LATER

 

Jesus Christ KMS is a horrible, horrible guy to deal with.

Need I post links to the numerous horror stories from Atlantans about his shitty work?

I know John Kauffman and used to work with him.

Quick rundown:

He took 3 months to do a B18C1 swap into my pal's EK. He "fabricated" mounts and shift linkage. Charged the guy out the *** for all sorts of work and the car never ran right until the owner of the car basically tore down and rebuilt the motor.

Another good friend of mine had Kauffman build his GS-R motor. Cams, headwork, the works without any boring over. Charged him out the *** too.

Results?

143whp and 112ft/lbs. torque.

I really hope that you'll take my word for it, otherwise I can get lots of references that have had crap work done from Kauffman/KMS.

Ask the guy who owns the Yellow Manchester Honda hatchback.

Ask Larry Herring (CR-X H22A drag guy.)

There are plenty more where that came from.

EDIT

Damn it I figured that this would end up a debate about Kauffman.



I'll try to keep it on topic, but I just feel compelled to warn people about the KMS hoopla - most ATL area people know better. He talks huge game, but his results are usually very dissappointing.

 

Seems like all he really needs is some forged pistons. Maybe some rods too if he wants to use nitrous. The sleeves would be nice for more cc's, and peace of mind. I wouldn't bother with any of that other rubbish.

You said he's going hondata right? No reason to lower the compression ratio if everything was fine at 10.2 on cast pistons with no stand-alone. If anything, with forged pistons and hondata he can raise his compression. Like you said, he cant raise the boost like a turbo guy could.

 

sorry about that... i have just had good luck with KMS, prices were pretty good too...

well then....

talk to Viren with VS racing, his HT name is b18bturbo, he did some of my work as well, and he knows his sh*t.

my suggestions...
flat top 10:1 pistons, eagle or crower rods, darton or GE sleeves, p&p... pretty much anything to get a lot od NA power, just do not raise the compression

 

Well he has the money and wants to go all out, but my theory is that the block gets first dibs on money, and sleeves and bigger bore would take that IMO.

He can always pull the head later and upgrade if he wants to, but pulling out a block and going through all that **** again seems very counter productive and honestly a waste of money.

He gets his 12psi from a CR-V crank pulley, but he's saying that he might even try to upgrade the blower pulley too and get more boost. Sleeves IMO would be the ****.

Thanks for the opinions.

 

doesnt heat soak become an issue at those boost levels with the jrsc? which leads to detonation? he needs the nitrous more than an upgraded blower pulley. forget more boost unless you get the supercharger rebuilt, just run a slightly higher shot if that is possible. and to answer the question, yeah, i would rather have a "bulletproof (almost)" bottom end. just dont raise the rev limiter until you build the head, if thats what he wants to do...goodluck.
david

 

Yea...I would think much more then 10psi on a Jackson would be pushing it for intake air temps. Nothing will stand up to sustained detonation.

 

i have seen somewhere where people have actually put intercoolers on their JRSC, i can't recall the process, but i am fairly certain it was on this board

 

just remember, this engine is the heart and sould of your vehicle, if a so-so builder does it, then you comprimise iwth the chace of so-so craftsman ship and so-so results.

the B16 head flows fine, its not an issue. if it was a b18c1 i would consider it. my suggestion, save the headwork for later, go to the respectable shop, get the bottom end done. alot of guys on here are making over 400WHP with stock heads for the most part.

this is my suggestion

 

i'd sell the supercharger and buy a clean, low mileage b18c1, stock. do a nice custom turbo kit, headgasket, and engine management. have it tuned right and on race gas, he'll run mid-high 11's.


[Modified by jinxproof99, 1:48 AM 12/18/2002]

 

1) I would focus on the bottom end build-up. I would also prefer to keep the CR as close to stock as possible. (The larger quench area and lower CR would just eat up boost and the charger doesn't have much to spare).

2) The engine management is probably going to his best decision. (Tuning is the key).

3) I think I would leave the head flowing characteristics alone...maybe invest in a good spring and retainer kit to up the revs a bit safely. (Just doing that would probably be enough to make your friend happy and not cost him an arm & a leg).

4) I'm pretty much in the same boat as your friend...his story damn near reads exactly like mine. I thought about doing all those things he had on his wish list. But my other projects are sucking up my funds. So with that in mind and figuring that the charger wouldn't be able to put a fully built engine to the power levels it would deserve to go to. I'm opting out to just replacing the pistons, rods, & engine management and I'm estimating a total cost of around $2300.

5) If he plans on going turbo soon....the sleeves, big bore, low compression, & head work would be awesome but seems like overkill for the charger. My .02!

 

I appreciate the replies, but really selling the supercharger is not an option here.

Why spend monsy for a stock B18C1 when he can get close to 1797cc with a bigger bore sleeved block and have forged pistons at any CR and rods too? Plus he gets to keep that ultra-slick 1.74 R/S of the B16A - making it rev easier too.

Trying to sell off a blown B16A and then buy a B18C1 won't be easy and he'll lose money.

 

Dude tell him to buy the parts and send his block to Import Builders. Then just get the head fixed. Get a Hondata and tune that bitch. John @ Secret Services does great work with a Hondata (VapourTrail on here).

Is it Owen's car??? Or am I not to call out nameso n here (Ooppps)