In these days of $40,000+ ITS BMWs that run lap times as fast as World Challenge, I've been doing alot of pondering on the questions regarding the costs of racing in IT. Mainly, is one class really significantly any less expensive than another (assuming you want to run up front... You <U>can</U> build a cheap ITS car... and finish somewhere not in the front).

Many people have argued that the costs of properly building a tub/motor/suspension aren't that much different from class to class. And this is true to a degree when you consider that it costs just as much to buy trick shocks for an ITC Civic as it does for an ITS Prelude. But the flip side of that argument is the costs of buying and building motors. I know phatty just bought a used head for his CRX Si for $150. Try buying a head for a GSR for $150...

But for me the biggest factor seems to be the costs that go into maintaining competitiveness in each class. In other words, you are far more likely to find guys buying new Hoosiers for each race in ITS than you are in ITC. You also typically don't find things like $6000 shocks and data acquisition in ITC (but it is legal, and there are some of them out there, just not as many).

Of course, the same thing applies to Honda Challenge, just on a lower scale because some of the big dollar goodies like Motec brains and Data Acquisition aren't allowed. But it's still cheaper to competitively buy and maintain an H5 car than an H3 or H2 car.

Thoughts? Additions?

"All forms of amateur motorsports are stupid. Some are just less stupid than others." -- Rice

 

This might not be a popular opinion - why screw up my perfect record now? - but marque mystique and snobbery have something to do with the variation in what people seem willing to spend.

There are Rabbit fans and 325 fans and they tend to have differing perspectives on what a racing budget might look like. The kind of person who is going to be attracted to a Datsun 510, Scirocco, or Civic is not likely to have either the ego or the financial clout to worry about a Stack dash, multiple transmissions, a "hundred dyno runs", $2k/corner shocks, or a lot of the other things that make the difference between a $10,000 car and a $40,000 car. Conversely, the person with the financial situation that can support a $50k/year racing budget isn't typically going to gravitate toward a 20 year old hatchback.

Kirk

 

^ What he said.

Beyond the car prep costs, there isn't all that much in it. Tires and shocks last longer in ITC b/c the cars weigh less. That's about it.

 

theres little bling to be had in an unloved, carted 'er up and stripped 'er guts piece........ now compare to a pretty fresh-off-the-showroom bimmer...

Kirk raises a good point in this, that those who have money will extend as far as the budget allow, whether it be ITC or Speed GT rather than relaxing the budget and having fun (sound familiar guys? scott?). But in the end there will always be someone who is going to spend alot more than you and lose to you, or spend alot less and bea_t you. We are in this hobby to have fun right and share with our competitors after the rubbin's done.

RJ - who wonders why he is buying a $9K prelude instead of a $2-3K hatch/crx

 

My guess is there is no class or series in which winning doesn't cost a bunch of money.

 

I guess, as Kirk pointed out, it depends on an individuals perspective and that person's definition of a "bunch of money."

 

I've got a friend that stopped racing ITS and bought GT2 RX7 because he found that it was cheaper to run his GT2 car than running in ITS.

 

ITA and ITB can be run fairly cheaply. (i use cheaply in an extremely relative manner)
in a class like ITE, on the other hand, prices go up significantly. just to give you an idea of what you would be up against, we used to test our world challenge cars in ITE during regional events.

-tony

 

I commend you for trying to rationalize your racing effort.

I think though that if you are that disciplined, your analysis should result in the conclusion that with RACING as your first priority there are obvious choices with more appeal than an FWD Honda. Spec Racer Ford - stupid, stupid cars - are the single best choice.

That you appear to want to stay in the world of Honda's indicates a residual sense of romantic attachment. If you can't shake that entirely it will grow and re-emerge, ultimately bringing you to the realization that you wanted more rather than less car.

You want an Integra Type-R. And that's ok. Don't be a fool, and make what will turn out to be a costly mistake that will have you slapping your forehead so much that it gets all red and swollen, and then you can't drive cause your haid won't fit in your helmet, and so you can't actually race, but you walk around the paddock in your Sparco suit trying to pick up women, even though you've got an awesome girlfriend, but on account of your haid being all swollen you can't always remember that......you know what I'm sayin?.

Scott, who thinks you gotta go all the way one way.....or all the way the other......

 

Building a Civic (SOHC, Non VTEC) costs less. Period.
Money saved is money saved. I can go pick up a new shortblock for 50 bucks.
Clutches cost 55 bucks.
Tires and brakes last forever.
I couldn't find a set of spark plug wires that cost less than 50 bucks for the GS-R.

---Now, to go and spend all my money saved on a roll cage, header, and LSD....which are all still not cheap.

 

I agree with ya Scott. If I had it to do over again, I would have bought a prepared ITA CRX. Buy a $25k car, then throw in another $15k to prepare it (not including tires, rotors, brakes) just to have fun...sort of tired of it. And if it isn't fun, then what's the point. Granted I spent quite a bit of $$$ on tranny related issues, but then again I have a new tranny and Kaaz LSD, a very good back up stock ITR tranny and back-up LSD, FD, gears, syncros, back-up shocks, wheels, blah blah blah... $9k for a race ready ITA CRX that includes spares...that's the ticket. I always new Adam was a smart fella....

 

 

What about Spec Miata and the likes? Are there enough loopholes to make ur $10k-15k Spec Miata a $40k beast?

Scott, what are your goals other than feeding your ego by beating up us poor slow folks? Sponsership? Becoming a professionally paid driver?

What about the open wheel / formula route? It seems like if you're point is to prove how fast you are in order to gain some attention and maybe get picked up as a paid driver it's better to go the formula routes vs spending $$$ on a faster car -- because it seems or at least it gives me the impression that a lot of the people in the winner circle in the IT level have the $$ to make their cars faster.

&lt;- Knows he isn't good enough or rich enough to win. So he tries to just enjoy going fast and the fellowship.


(edit: grammar is fun)


[Modified by SpiceyRice, 9:00 AM 12/10/2002]

 

$6K sunbelt engines, cars with 100+ dyno runs, countless test days at the track (and its subsequent use of tires/brakes/your time), built off of virgin tubs completely dissasembled and all bushings/etc replaced with new are becoming the norm in the winners circle..... So your answer is Yes.

 

But the counter-argument to this is that in ITC those things make more of a difference. You don't have the power, so you *need* the grip and the tires. If you are a good driver, you might have a shot against somebody with $6000 shocks and brand new Hoosiers in ITS because the cars have more power, and don't rely quite so much on maintaining momentum through the turns. You try that in ITC and you are lap traffic.... Just something to ponder.

There is no way to stay at the top on a low budget unless you have skills (with an s, not a z) far beyond those around you. Right now it's possible with Honda Challenge simply because it is a new series, with most of the competition being new to racing. Over time, HC will be the same way. Even if it happens gradually, we are all moving in the same direction. An LSD here, a custom header there. When it's all said and done, we've spent $20k building up the cars, and a new entrant will have to do the same to match our pace. So we either face that fact that we all made a huge financial mistake by getting caught up in this hobby, or start a new race series every couple of years to keep costs down. Either way, we should have chosen the crack habit....


Matt


[Modified by speedracer33, 9:28 AM 12/10/2002]

 

Far from it. My goal is to have fun and be competitive without spending all of my retirement money.
Pretty simple really.

 

This raises a question that has been nagging me for some time lately: I want a race car. I want the most fun for my money - which isn't much I don't want to work on it too much. I don't want to be supremely non-competitive. I have no brand loyalty. I DO have a bit of snobbery about driving a 20 year old hatchback. I always assumed Spec Miata would be the way to go - where you can run mid to front pack in a $15,000 car and there aren't all the development costs of any IT series. But the whole Spec Racer or karts thing keeps me thinking, is there a better way?

 

What do you want? Speed? Recognition? Fame? Beer? Fun? Comraderie? Racing in any form isnt cheap but a midpack ITB/H5 car would be one of the "cheapest" options around. Live near summit point and run the MARRS series, drive to the track, run midpack on toyos.... or SRX7

 

1) a bit
2-4) nope
5-6) yup
I thought about ITB... it goes to the "20 year old hatchback" issue and the total lack of speed. Maybe I should give it a second look? ITA/H4 is attractive - but on the verge of expensive and extensive as I start worrying about things like gearing and constantly fresh Hoosiers. ITA basically looks like a wash, cost wise, w/ SM. SRX-7... did Al get to you? (see also, 20 year old hatchback, plus a motor I don't get).


[Modified by HippoSleek, 4:31 PM 12/10/2002]

 

you would be suprised how much fun youd have in a "slow" race kar.... i imagine its a great tool for learning momentum management

 

Having driven a 15 year old ITC CRX last year at a test day, I can honestly say that it was just as much fun as my GSR. The straight line speeds are much slower, but the cornering speeds are nearly identical.

20 year old hatch = Slower down the straight, but brake less and go fast through the corner.

And as we all know, any dipshit can go fast down the straights.

 

you want to have your cake and eat it too, it seems. Well, you're gonna be hard pressed to have a newer (avoiding the "20 year old hatchback") car to race and be competitive in, and be relatively inexpensive at the same time. H5/ITB is the way to go if you're into fun, relative low cost, etc. If you want faster, be ready to pay for it. Speed costs money. And another thing to remember, you can have a newer car and be in the game for less money - but you will be slower. During the course of 2 ProIT's at Road Atlanta I passed a few ITS cars, a 944 and 2nd gen RX7 come immediately to mind, in my nearly 20 year old ITA/H5 Integra. Just because you're in the fastest class in a newer car doesn't mean you're guaranteed of being faster than anyone, and being in a newer car will virtually guarantee that it'll cost you more money to get faster. Parts are generally more expensive, faster heavier car is harder on consumables, etc.

If money were no object then yeh, I would be in H1 with an S2000. But I dare anyone to tell me I didn't have just as much fun as anyone on track this year, in any class, in pursuit of the H5 trophy. And I have less in my whole car, trailer and spares included, than some of the H1 guys have in just their engines.

I'd rather race now in a 20 year old hatchback and have fun than stand by and watch for years while I tried to scrape up $$$ to afford a car that is a lot newer, but won't really bring me any more fun on track and will actually cost me a couple of years of otherwise affordable racing experience in an older car.

 

Agreed. Well said.
And for the record, a 20 year old hatchback is outside of the rules right now. (1984 and newer models)

 

Well, as in all racing, you can spend as much as you want and may/may not still be competitive in any class. There will always be the people that 'need' new Hoosiers every event. I would bet there is someone that can/will smote them on old Toyos/BFGs- this is more fun to me!!

You can pick up a prepared ITC Civic/CRX for in the $5k ballpark or jump up to a ~$10k ITA CRX and go faster or make the leap to ITS in a GSR. The ITC car will most likely cost less because of the lighter weight and less mass to slow/turn.

These cars (ITC) are pretty much bulletproof also which means you will spend more time on track and not in the garage.

Good luck

 

HEY! I resent that!

Holding my car wide open at Lowes is much harder than a GSR, which you have to push, hehe