Why is it that i seem to have in the back of my head that the Mugen header sucks. Mugen seems to be know as an "inflated" company in the honda aftermarket world by many. I personally was in 1 ITR that had the mugen header and twin loop cat back, and I wasn't impressed. it seemed as though it was less *****'ey then stock (what i was at the time), and it didn't feel as torquey. Who knows... but i just always here SMSP this and Hytech that... even toda, but whats with the Mugen piece?

Jon

 

Making that comparison between two different cars and by the seat of the pants?

They work well. The quality is very high. SMSP, Hytech, and Toda are also nice units.

Are you asking if the Mugen header is worth the cash?

 

I wouldn't buy one unless it was dirt cheap.

There's simply better for the money.

 

Honda copied it in 1998

 

QUOTE]Honda copied it in 1998[/QUOTE]

Explain?

 

Enlighten us, please.

 

Yes, I know the comparison was not very accurate.. but for the $2000 he spent on Mugen piping on his R, i was at least expecting to notice the diff. between his R and mine (stock at time, like i said).

For your second question... I am not asking if the Mugen header is worth the cash, as far as I have heard, it is not, and I am wondering WHY that is the consensus of opinion. Like someone already posted.... for the money there is better. Didn't the mugen header do barely better then stock?

Jon

 

The common consensus is this way because there are simply better headers for the money.

 

Do you know what cat he was running? Any other parts and any tuning done? I too would expect to feel a noticeable different.

I think "better" doesn't always mean more power - well at least not to me. I've got a JDM DC header on one of my cars and it makes great power for the money I spent on it. However I would much rather have a Mugen header for the better quality.

I'm not sure why the consensus is that Mugen headers suck. A lot of race teams, that do not have to worry about the cost of a header, use a Mugen header. In that case the motors are tuned specifically for the parts they use... another reason why a great header test really isn't all that valid. A header may or may not be suited to the static test vehicle in terms of tuning.

Well, anyway I like my Mugen header and I know it makes more power than the stock unit - plus it is about 20 lbs lighter and looks 100 times better

 

My mugen header gave me a lot of power, expecially in the mid range. I have the full system 4-2-1, twin loop, and carsound. I love it.
It also fits like stock, no modifications. The Hytech you have to cut off a peice of transmission cover, not what it is though, but not a perfect fit like the mugen. Not to mention that the Hytech cat back is a copy of the mugen twin loop.

 

But the copy makes more power... i wonder if it only makes more power because of the tuning devices that were used in the tests (vafc/cam gears)?
Jon

 

Your cost for the full Mugen setup vs the cost of my HyTech setup were virtually the same when you include shipping. You had a gain 5.4 peak whp, with a 18whp gain at 5700rpm, on average you had a gain of 5-8whp, whereas I gained 20+whp from 4500-8300rpm. The HyTech cat-back removes the bottleneck at the cat-->b-pipe and is larger piping inside the muffler, thus an improvement from what was previously produced...other than the initial twin loop design(which was an older idea when Mugen started using it), they are not the same, different piping, different canisters, and different tips...as well as HyTech integrates his cat into the b-pipe.

And it's a transmission to block brace. Your cost for the full Mugen setup vs the cost of my HyTech setup were almost he same when you include shipping.

Here are the charts:

Here is your car, beginning was bone stock, when done it was with the Mugen 4-2-1, Mugen cat-back, Carsound 54006, Comptech Icebox, Comptech drop in filter, and an A'PEXi VAFC.


Fullsized requires you to copy and paste the link:
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Here is mine:

before was with:
mugen headgasket
comptech icebox
Hondata intake manifold gasket

After was with:
above +
HyTech full exhaust
Hondata
Tuned Cam gears
FPR

Last chart had the FPR removed and 290cc/min injectors added in, car was retuned for the larger injectors.



Fullsized requires you to copy and paste the link:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...a.jpg.orig.jpg


Austin - who is tired of people senselessly bashing products

 

Since the back of your head tells you that the header sucks, I wouldn't expect you to be impressed with it. Besides, there isn't a header in the world that's going to work as well as a couple hits of NOS, and that's obviously what you were expecting.

It's pretty obvious that all the people that jump on one bandwagon will at the same point in time be jumping off of another one. SMS and HyTech happen to be what people are talking about right now, but you can't automatically assume that a postive review for Header A means a negative review for Headers B, C, and D. A little over a year ago, everyone was jocking the Spoon 4-2-1. I haven't heard anything about that header for months, does that mean it all of a sudden isn't a good header anymore?

What are you talking about? The HyTech copy makes more power than the Mugen twin loop? I've never seen any dyno comparisons for the two exhausts...and obviously if one test incorporates "tuning devices" and the other test doesn't, that isn't a very effective test.

 

You are correct, there hasn't been a test posted...but I do know of a certain 2.0L that lost 15whp with the Mugen twin-loop, and didn't lost it with the HyTech...but that information isn't public knowledge and I don't think that I have access to their polts.

Austin

 

Mugen 4-1 header 1996
JDM 4-1 header 1998
Mugen 4-2-1 Gymkhana header 1998

 

I'm glad we can agree that the cost is totally irrelevant. Any high end exhaust system is going to cost you a pretty penny, regardless of what side of the Pacific it comes from and whose name is on it.

Um...okay...so now we are back to that claim of a HyTech header/exhaust combo being good for 20+ whp However, your setups are not even close to being the same...so...what good are the numbers you provided?

Yes, John has already told us how much better the HyTech is. He has also told us the twin loop design is "old" and that his design is much better. Dyno charts please.

Wait, did you already mention the cost? And isn't it a non-issue? I think the Helms calls that part you need to shave an "engine stiffener". And that isn't the only fitment issue...the HyTech doesn't have a lower bracket to keep it from colliding with various components under the car, the 02 sensor wiring can't be clipped down properly because of the long design and thus is prone to being melted by the header, and it also tends to want to rub a hole through the oil pan (probably related to the lack of a lower bracket).

Holy **** I'm confused. This appears to be quite a lopsided comparison, but let's put it in a tabular format just to be sure:

<u>Iggy</u>.......................................<u>Austin </u>
Comptech Icebox....................Comptech Icebox
Comptech Filter.......................Comptech Filter
Mugen 4-2-1............................HyTech 4-2-1
Carsound 54006......................Renault something or other
Mugen twin loop.......................HyTech twin loop
A'PEXi VAFC............................Hondata intake manifold gasket
..............................................Muge n headgasket
..............................................Fuel pressure regulator
..............................................Tune d Cam gears
..............................................Hond ata (stage 2 or 3?)

Okay, so is it just me...or are these setups not even close to being similar? We all know that a V-AFC is more of a bandaid tuning device than anything else...so you are comparing Iggy's untuned car to your fully tuned car. I know we all like to compare Part A to Part B, but if Part B happens to produce more power with the aid of Parts C, D, E, F, then the comparison is useless. Compare Part A to Part B if you like, but don't compare Part A to Parts B through F...that doesn't tell you anything at all other than you have to fully tune your car to extract the maximum potential from any given setup.

Bob - who is almost as tired of people senselessly promoting products. Buy whatever works best for you and shut the **** up about it.


[Modified by Bob#455, 10:20 PM 11/25/2002]

 

I doubt that 2.0L is stock or anywhere close to it. Plus, I know of a certain 1.8L that made 208 whp with the Mugen twin loop, so I'm not worried about it robbing me of power.

[edit]spelling[/edit]


[Modified by Bob#455, 10:40 PM 11/25/2002]

 

I'm still confused????

 

Where the hell is the Great Header Test when you need it???????

I think that will answer everyone's question ..............

 

Don't you think the Mugen 4-1 header 1996 and the JDM 4-1 header 1998 look very similar?

 

Nope, I wasn't expecting anything like a nitrous increase. I know the effects won't be as drastic. I was just expecting MUCH more when I was in the car. I know what a stock R feels like. For example, I was in an R with the JDM 4-1, and it felt stronger then that R with the Mugen header. Who knows though, it probably was just a "weaker" R

Very true. I also remember when people were praising the Spoon header. Then again ...times change, and new things come out. If you remember, back then there was just "talk" of Hytech. I remember hearing, and hearing, and HEARING, AND HEARING about how the hytech header was almost done, and that it was going to be for sale soon. There was no SMSP at that time either. New things came out, and things got better IMO. I think John at hytech puts a lot more work into custom building his headers for the particular car then Spoon does, but thats just the feeling i get. That 20whp claim shocked a lot of people... that seemed unheard of on an otherwise stock honda.

Jon


[Modified by TypeR1558, 5:56 AM 11/26/2002]

 

http://www.automotiveperformanceengi...om/header.html


Always a great reference

 

There you all go ...... for those that didn't contribute cashflow to this, or for those that weren't around when they did it ...........

On a very lightly modded R (intake, then SMSP full catback and high-flow cat for ALL runs). Dyno results for the same car, same day, same conditions, and even some area under the curve discussion.

 

Who says this? are you f-ing serious? I was not under that impression, the only thing I think about mugen is 'expensive'. They've been alongside Honda for a long time and I never see ANYONE complaining about their Mugen parts, ever. Maybe just those that can't afford them. Sure, there are probably companies that make more power on various items, but I'm most impressed with the QUALITY of the items from Mugen.

What is this hytech stuff again? I could get an excellent header/cat/exhaust setup for WAY LESS than the hytech. The points made above indicating that it is a bit impractical such as: no header bracket, fitment near transmission, o2 placement issues, time to wait for the system.... these are the same reasons I decided to go another direction. Cost/hassle wise, I'd rather have something other than Hytech. Would it be Mugen? Not sure, but I know a guy who is making 180+ whp with mugen i/h/e. I personally think that is much more practical than a full hytech system that is even more expensive and has all kinds of issues, like waiting FOREVER for it and everything mentioned above.

Back to mugen having an 'inflated' reputation.... that's just plain garbage in my book.

 

For those that have no clue ...........

Mugen Honda = Soichiro Honda's son .......... created the Mugen label as basically the in-house race group for Honda. Has always been the heartbeat of Honda racing until the mid 1990's.

Great stuff, just overpriced for what you get ...........

People don't buy Hytech or SMSP because it has a bracket for factory mounting. They buy them because they put out the most power in ANY application, period ........ try flowing some serious air brought on by hot cams ...... nothing less than a $900 + header will EVER give you the kind of gains you can get with the proper equipment (READ - custom, bench flow tested piece).

The majority of race teams use these two for a reason .............