Ok, here is the situation. I just bought a 94 Civic CX w/AC. Its got 137,xxx miles on it. I also still have my 94 Civic Si. I talked to Tom on one occassion about doing a GSR swap into my Si. Since I live in the area, he is really the man to talk to (not trying to suck up to admin).

Earlier today I gutted out my CX. Basically all I kept was the stuff from the front seats up (the carpet will go as soon as I get a new set of floor mats). Ok, so the real question is..... when I sell my Si, what should I do with the money? I am going to have around $4000 to spend on motor and necessary parts needed to put the motor in. I've considered b16 2nd gen with lots of other mods with the extra money, and deeply considered b18c. I've also lightly touched on thinking about h22 even though some people have reasons to dislike it (this is where I need your advice Tom).

The b16a is almost out of the question unless I can benefit more with the extra money. B18c is most likely, unless someone can tell me a reason why h22 is better. I'm honestly not even sure $4000 will cover all the expenses related to h22a swap. I can get the motor for about $2400 from HMO, but what about the custom axles, mounts, etc....

Any replies to this thread are in my opinion. Thanks in advance for the help H-T.

 

I know that an ITR swap was not one of your options, but let me tell you about my experience. I have a 93 CX and I was considering going the B16 route because of money reasons. After realizing that it was worth it to spend the extra grand, I opted for the B18C SiR-G.

The GS-R motor feels really good in the CX, but now I wished I would have gone with the ITR. $4000 is a good start, but just remember that there is always going to be about $200-$300 in replacement parts and you will probably want to change the clutch and flywheel as well. If you aren't doing the swap yourself, then labor will eat you alive. Sell the SI, save the money, be patient until you have enough to go for the ITR (this of course if you want to stay NA).

On a side note, make sure you upgrade the suspension before the swap. Some will say do swap then suspension, but what is the point of having all that power and a car that handles like ****?

No matter what your path, good luck on your decision. Make sure to ask Tom about the evolution of his cars/motors. I believe he went B16 B18C1 B18C5 (the apex)!

 

Thanks for the quick reply. I did remotely consider the b18c5(R) but being a fulltime college student, I can't realistically afford it (unless someone wants to buy my Si for $6000 ). I would save the money, but honestly the CX runs like **** and I HAVE to have a daily commuter that puts 100 miles a day on average. The GSR motor I am looking at is $3300 just to put things in perspective, so I do have a little extra for clutch and timing belt.

 

whenever i do my swap, these are the must have parts I WANT.

clutch/flywheel.....600-800 (pretty easy to find good deals on these combos on HT)
water/oil pump, timing belt......350 or so for all three new(please correct me if im wrong)

so thats an easy +1000 i got to add onto the swap price. Now you could just add a clutch and the maintenance crap, but just about every always upgrades their clutch/ flywheel, so im going to do it when everything is out. So this limits my options(from a money stand point).

The things you need to look at are:

1. what driving you do
2. how much power you want

As for the h22a, i think its a great choice. Everyone will tell you that the 70lbs extra the H weighs will destroy handling blah blah blah.........its a huge debate im sick of going over and over......do a search youll find everything you need to know, and you can make your own conclusions.

As for you, 4k is a good start and not far from a itr swap. If you can, i say get it. The price is high due to availibilty, but you do get a very good drivetrain.

Good luck


Mike



[Modified by Mike D, 3:44 AM 11/19/2002]

 

Oh, I've done plenty of searching believe me. Once again thanks for the responses. I've been reading on this topic for a couple of months now, its become an obsession and now I'm so close. I can almost feel it.

 

Hey man, I feel you on the full time college student! I'm a sophomore at a four year university carrying 16 units and thirty hours a week. I hate to keep bringing up the ITR swap, but it would really be worth it. Why not fix the CX motor, or better yet, find someone in the area that is doing a swap, and see if you can't score their motor for dirt cheap. This will solve your shitty CX motor problem.

Do you have suspension upgrades, i.e shocks, springs, brakes, sway bars? Figure a good $1000 at least for suspension.

Are you performing the swap yourself? I know you mentioned 3300 for the GSR swap, and you had mentioned HMO earlier, so I am assuming you are looking to get the swap from Steve (who is a good guy from my experiences, I bought my GSR from him). When you are figuring the price for the swap, don't forget shipping, and maybe tax, that will run you at least 300-400.

The way I see it, you could either:

a. Go with the 2nd generation B16 for $1900+shipping from Osaka motors. Then add a clutch/flywheel for another 800, some suspension for another 1000, and replacement parts for 200-300. That should just about take care of the 4000. THIS IS ASSUMING YOU DO THE SWAP YOURSELF.

b. Get another CX/DX engine for 200, put that bitch in yourself, then save another 3000 and just go straight to the ITR!

I guess it all depends on how serious you want to get. For me, I really didn't think I would be that into it. I kept telling myself that the B16 would be more than enough. Now that I have the GSR, I want more. After the ITR, who knows what, maybe BOOST , who knows.


[Modified by 93SSPHatch, 8:27 PM 11/18/2002]

 

I have a GSR swap and I *LOVE* it. However, I have a supercharger and Hondata stage 3B. (I still need tuning, header, new cat, and a real good axle back exhaust, but that's coming someday)

I've gone over this multi times before, and most of the peeps here are with me.

Save the extra and get the Type R. Trust us. You won't be sorry. The extra work to get type R performance out of the GSR motor is a pain. Trust ME. I can no longer remove my intermediate shaft without removing the supercharger. The R is "ready out of the box" to give you what you need.

H22 - well, frankly, it's a kludge. You can do it, but going back to any other civic/integra motor will be a pain. B series swaps are reversible, no fuss no muss. If I wanted to slap in my stock CX motor and sell the car stock I can. Ask any H22 owner if he can do that.

Shawn

 

You all are bringing some very good points that I didn't consider.... i.e. that h22a swaps are not very reversable while b-series are. The option about the b16 2nd gen with suspension mods for the $4k sound very nice. BTW, the car is bone-stock.

 

Great points Shawn! Where were you when I was contemplating the GSR or ITR swap? My whole car build up experience has been filled with decsions that were made to quickly. I didn't think I would ever be able to afford an ITR, but now that I have the GSR, I wish I would have saved another month or two, and just went all out.

Maybe we need to figure out what kind of goals he has for his car. He wants it to be a daily driver that can go 100 miles each day, but what about performance goals, i.e. quarter mile, 0-60, whp, auto x?

 

Auto-X would be nice. I want to keep the factory AC. I plan on occassionally taking it to the strip and of course waxing local Civics inbetween redlights. I know it sounds lame and immature, but I want to be able to outrun a USDM GSR powered EG Si. I know that my new chasis is significantly lighter, but how much of a difference does this make. I'm not sure on the quarter mile time I am looking at as I have no drag experience. Let's just say that the d16z6 was "*** fast" when I first started driving it, now its just "ehh".

 

Why not go with option (b.) from above? With everyone doing DOHC swaps, why not just find someone who is looking to get rid of their CX/DX motor. See if you can't drive the car before it is removed, and check for all the usuall things. You wouldn't even need the tranny, linkage, or ECU, just use what you have. Do you know what is wrong with the current motor? Hell, maybe you would only need the head or just the tranny. This way, you could take your time and build the suspension, some new wheels/tires, then when all the pieces are together drop in the ITR.

If you go ITR, you will probably want a better exhaust right away to let that beast breath, so figure another 500 into the equation.

Ask youself this: Do I plan to keep this car for a while? If the answer is yes, then look at everything you put on your car as an investment towards your happiness and enjoyment. Try thinking about long term, if you were to ever go from B16 to B18C5, then you are going to be practically throwing money away that you put into the B16, because you will never recover the full value that you paid for it.

Take the advice from the majority of the people on this board, and do it right the first way.

If you only want the CX for a year or so, and you just want something that is fast, just buy a cheap EX/SI motor and slap on a ZEX kit or something. Realistically, nitrous is quite possibly the best bang for the buck

 

I have already owned a hatch and still own a hatch with an EX/SI motor and Nitrous just doesn't thrill me the same way all motor power does.

I do plan on keeping this car for quite some time (2 + years hopefully). Option b) does seem like a decent plan if I weren't so damn impatient. I know it's really not good to be like that, but I can't help it. I've been engine swap crazy for 2 years now and am finally this close. I have never had a DOHC of any type in a Honda, and I just keep thinking to myself that the b16 is going to seem relatively fast compared to what I am used to. But then I remind myself of how tolerable the 89 CRX DX (auto) was when I had it, and how FAST the Si seemed when I "upgraded" to that.

 

Option "B" is for you my friend (I feel like a damn salesman)! I was super imaptient as well. I cruised around in a 1984 Toyota Corolla for my entire high school career. Then during my freshman year of college, I cruised around in my CX with all my suspension done and a shitty CX motor. I did that for almost a year and a half. I kept wanting to just get the B16 and say "screw it" but I ended up holding out for the GSR. Now that i have the GSR, it was fun for like the first week, but I now want more. I can almost gurantee that you will want more than the B16; there is no replacement for displacement, and displacement with a kickass valvetrain and high compression(ITR motor) is almost as good as. . . well. . .something that is really good


[Modified by 93SSPHatch, 9:33 PM 11/18/2002]

 

If you find an absolutely killer deal on an itr motor...then get it. Otherwise, those motors are pretty damn overpriced. With the money you save not going itr...you can put into ur suspension. I would say ur budget is pretty tight for a gsr swap also.

Either swap you do will be fine. Big improvement over what you have now. But you'll always want more. Get a b16...I should have gone GSR. Get a gsr...people say ITR. Get an ITR...then ur thinking about the H22s torque. We're never satisfied.

-Rod

 

What about this option. Opt for a b16+ suspension mods for now. Of course as we all know this will just make me want more. Since there is no replacement for displacement when it comes to torque, and I can't put a LS1 TransAM motor in, instead get a b18b block or b20 block and go LSVTEC. With this option I will have a decent ride for a while til I need more, then I have the option of going extreme with power on the LSVTEC, plus I already will have the tranny, axles, etc...

 

As far as H22s go...motor is cheaper true. But for the axles, mounts, labor, etc....it'll add up. I'd recommend someone doing the install that has actually had experience with them.

But damn...if done right...h22 civics are quick. Stock motor vs stock...i think the h22 civic would pull on the itr civic.

BTW, I was thinking of going h22 before. But what really changed my mind was that it sits a bit lower than a b series motor. So scraping would be an issue. Parts are not interchangeable like b series motors are. Aftermarket is weaker for h22s. And finally B series motors are so well documented on the web.

-Rod

 

I`d go ITR and up the compression (upgrade pistons) before you drop it in.

Ryan

 

Are you doing the swap yourself?

If not then you are going to pay twice as much for labor to go from B16 to CRVTEC or LSVTEC. You will have to pay for the intial labor install, then later down the line, you will pay them again to switch out the short block and to PROPERLY build the B18b or B20.

For the money you are going to spend on the B16, then making it into CRV-LS VTEC, you would have been better off just going with the ITR to begin with. See how much cash you can save until summer. That way, during summer, you will not have school, you will have enough for the ITR plus goodies, and you will have plenty of time to do the swap yourself.

I think it is about time for Tom to throw his .02 in here. He will set you straight! You should listen to HT veterans like VTECVOODOO, SHAWN, and B18C5-EH2, they have a good understanding of what is going on. Don't listen to some rookie scrub like myself, I really can't speak from experience about the ITR, but the guys above can!


[Modified by 93SSPHatch, 9:52 PM 11/18/2002]

 

How about going with a straight LS or B20 motor for now? Then later down the road going with the vtec conversion?

_Rod

 

I am definetely going to do the initial swap myself. What about FI? B16, then add a turbo later? That eliminates the pesky build up of a CRV/LSVTEC and I won't HAVE TO pull the motor again. I know I am going to be running a rather high compression stock, but a few pounds of boost would up my HP/torque significantly from what I've seen on DYNO sheets.

BTW, I know this is getting away from the initial question, but I am getting some good info. Thanks so far guys.

 

i have a b18c w/ factory lsd. i love the shorter final drive.

this is all i have.... i think it is pretty good.

act clutch
zex fly
iceman cold air
2.25 pipe w/ $15 muffler
no cat
no ac
obd-1
don't have secondaries hooked up..

2.3- sixty(crap tires)
14.07
99.6mph (100.89 is best mph)

Shorter Final drive is the greatest invention ever!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are going all-motor must go w/ short gears.

shaves about half sec. it must. always in a strong vtec

I can smell 13.9's coming

 

Rod, I'm feelin' that idea! I guess it just matters if he wants to mess with trying to piece together a strong and reliable CRVTEC or LSVTEC. It just seems easier to just go ITR and throw some higher compression pistons in there (like Ryan had mentioned before).

 

Ur right dude. ITR would be great. But if he were like me...I bet I wouldn't be able to wait and try to save up hehe.

BTW, what are the goals for this car?

-Rod


[Modified by RK, 9:57 PM 11/18/2002]

 

Tearing apart a beautiful OEM Honda motor is not at the top of my list. Although I mentioned the CRVTEC etc I would prefer not to go that route. If anything FI would be ranked higher than those options.

Higher compression pistons in an ITR motor would be awesome, but in order to do that I'd have to rip that gorgeous thing apart and I don't know if I could bring myself to do it.

 

Goals are

Decent Auto-X
Daily Driver (100+miles a day)
Unknown WHP ? i dont know
mid to low 14's eventually maybe (not sure either, sounds realistic)