Getting some coils for my 91 CRX and i'm currently debating between a revalved bilstein + GC setup, or AMR coilovers. I think the price will come out to be about the same.

BUT, i'm curious what people are using for spring rates at the track. It seems 100 lbs higher in the rear is common for street builds, and people tend to gravitate towards 200 higher for more track focused stuff, but people rarely share their full setup (swaybars and stuff). I plan on running either no, or an extremely small swaybar out back, and a small-ish swaybar up front. That being said, i'll be running on 15x8's, square, on 225's. Vehicle will be mixed use of street and track. I've been tracking a highly modified evo X for about 6 years now, so the driving ability is there in terms of aggressive setups. Currently thinking about 400/600 or maybe 450/550.

Anyone with experience care to chime in?

 

spring rates on a street/track car will be a compromise. I'll stick with talking spring rates and stay away from what shocks you should have.

I stayed in the 400-550 range when my integra was on the street still. as soon as I went dedicated track car, I went up. Spring rates are apart of the whole package... which need to take into account alignment, bushing type, wheel base, etc.

A CRX is roughly 10 inches shorter than the EG/EK/DC chassis. I would suggest, especially if you are or have upgraded your front brakes... going with the heavy front spring setup. for the spring rates you are talking about... it would be in the 550/450, with an adjustable rear bar (no front bar). you will want an adjustable rear bar to dial in the rotation of your short wheel base car. I'd also suggest getting an adjustable shock set up for the short wheel base car as they are more sensitive when you drive them on the edge at the track.

the front heavy spring setup will minimize nose dive under braking and help keep the rear planted during turn in. you use the rear bar, shock settings, and alignment to help with dialing in rotation. This is a simple basic explanation... that gets super complicated when you are trying to pick up tenths of a second lap after lap.

 

Kaan, Thanks for your input. I'm surprised that you'd suggest stiffer front, though i understand your reasoning. My setup right now is full sphericals on every single joint. Zero toe on all 4 corners. Camber is irrelevant right now as that'll change based on tire temps once the new coils get in and i decide on a ride height. It'll probably be close to -3 though. I always run my setups to have colder outside tire temps by 10-20 degrees (based on compound). This always yields higher mid-corner grip. Castor is going to stay around 4 degrees. I've found anything more than that jacks the bumpsteer a bit too much on the EF.

My evo runs 200 lbs higher in the rear with adjustable sways on both ends set to soft. This tends to work well loading the rears sooner, leaving grip up front on turn-in and midcorner for corrections. The platform is so front heavy, it overloads the front tires with a quickness. My idea for the CRX was the same, inducing a touch of oversteer on turn in and bringing balance by applying power, with higher rates in the rear preventing squat on power application, allowing me to get on the gas harder and sooner. THis is of course all theoretical as i stil don't have enough experience on this platform. Most everyone i've seen in CRX do tend to have more spring up front and stiffer bars out back. My experience in other platforms says the opposite is faster. I just want to make sure i'm not going down a dark road to disaster lol. As a datapoint, i believe the Honed EF civic was running with almost 10k stiffer rates in the rear at one point, though i'm not sure what the rest of their setup looked like.

 

Shoot i just remembered something. I have heard a lot of people getting cracks in the rear subframe once they start tracking an EF. I know ASR makes a brace kit, but it seems there may be some viable stuff on ebay for 1/10th the cost. Does anyone recommend anything specific in terms of a brace?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Lower-...8AAOSw43Jbw~R~


ASR's sway bars seem to be a bit too stiff for my liking though. I had my eye on the ST 22mm bars. I know they come with brackets, i'm just not sure if that's enough to keep the subframe ears properly supported.

 

you have to think through the whole motion of the corner. for example, if you do run the stiffer front (it minimizes the "dog leg" and therefore maximizes tire contact), you will actually want rear toe in (slightly) because as the suspension compresses you will get your loaded toe out. you might actually want this depending on how soft your spring rates are with a "stiff" rear.

another thing, your diff will play a big part in the handling and how you set up the car also... I run my mfactory at 1.5... makes the front heavy spring setup feel neutral and allow for me to throttle steer easily (helps a lot to change the pitch of the car mid corner when racing). When it was set up as a 1.0, it would feel pushy.

you seem like you do your research and have experience. setups depend on every thing the car has on it... AND the driver style.

 

I stick with the known companies. I run an ASR subframe brace. If the design is off just a little, it will not spread the stress correctly.

and yes, I had to do subframe repair on my EM1... which was tracked most of its life with a HUGE rear bar... and a name brand subframe brace. Mine was a quick weld and not a complete failure.

 

Thanks for that! I've always been so curious as to why people run 1.5's on hondas. I had assumed it was to help prevent inside tire lockup on turn-in. I've always preferred 1.0's on the cars i've driven as the 1.5's i've had experience with tend to add understeer. But i've never driven a honda with a proper diff (Vlsd only). I need to jump in someone's car with a 1.5 before i pull a trigger on a proper diff. Luckily that will be way down the road for me. I'm going to blow up my D series first before i touch engine & tranny.

 

AMR just got back to me. They recommended 550/650 rates. And if i pull the trigger today, they can have them out in a week since they're doing a build order of CRX coils this week.

 

worst case is you can flip the spring rates if you want. hopefully AMR has improved their business practices over the years.

 

2nd gen CRXes are unique beasts. We have a '90 CRX Si prepped for SCCA ITA that we use for an endurance racing car. Spring rates are 700 lbs-f/in front, 900 lbs-f/in rear on DMS rally dampers. We run no front anti-sway bar, and stock rear antisway bar. Tyres are 205/50R15 Hoosier R7s (Toyo R888s for rain). Car has an IT-legal 6 point cage so it doesn't tie into the front shock towers or tie to the pillars. Bushings are a combination of sphericals and polyurethane.

Surprisingly spring rates don't seem to make as much of a difference in terms of driver feel. Even with these crazy sounding rates the drivers find the car to be very easy to drive and very compliant. Some of that is probably down to the expensive dampers, but we went from 450 lbs-ft F / 450 lbs-ft R on revalved Koni Yellows and the drivers reported barely feeling a difference aside from the decreased body roll and better behavior in the middle of corners.

What does seem to make a big difference is alignment. The usual FWD track alignment tricks seem to make the cars really twitchy and scary on turn-in. The alignment setup that is most stable for our drivers is:

This seems totally backwards from normal theory, but for some odd reason this gives you a car that's stable under braking and can be thrown into corners. We got this setup from some of the fast IT racers in our region, and liked it so much that we kept it.

As far as cracking / tearing hard parts, there are three things that you want to watch out for:

1. Tearing out the antisway bar bracket to subframe chassis mounting points if you run a big rear bar
2. The front hubs cracking all the way around from brake heat, causing the wheels to literally come off
3. Cracking of the rear subframe near the lower control arm mounting bolts

The first one is definitely one to watch out for if you plan to run a big rear bar. The previous owner of our racecar was running it with no bars specifically because he wanted to avoid this problem.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but happy to answer additional questions as you have them.

 

What do you mean? Were they shady or something? I haven't heard anything negative yet, other than they're just a small operation.

 

Awesome advice, thank you. Since my budget is way less than those dampers, i probably won't run those rates until i convert to a full-blown racecar setup. What's the best way to mitigate against 1, 2, and 3? I assume sticking with a soft rear sway, Maybe upgrading to a DA spindle for 2, and getting a decent brace for 3?

Also out of curiosity, why DMS rally coils instead of say, MCS, JRZ, Moton, or Penske shocks? I currently run MCS remote 2 ways on my Evo X and am in love with them. More compliant than the previous KW v3's at twice the spring rate. I know they make non remote 1 ways if you're restricted by rules. Wouldn't hesitate for the MCS 1 ways for the CRX but it's out of the budget i had in mind for this car.

 

there was a stretch of time they were not responsive at all. part of their small business "issues" were the product the produced was so good... but follow up support lacked.

 

The DMS dampers are actually on loan from a friend who isn't using them. That's why we have such high-buck dampers. Otherwise we'd probably have chosen something more reasonable. The rates are a little high for revalved Koni yellows (not enough fluid volume to maintain low speed damping once they get warmed up), but they're perfectly doable with most other of the entry-level monotube race coilovers out there (e.g. Fortune Auto, AMR, etc).

My recommendations for mitigating against these three hard part failures are:
1. Reinforcing the mounting points for the sway bar brackets with a large plate welded to the chassis
2. Either a DA spindle conversion, heat treat the front hubs for strength, or inspect and replace frequently. On our car, we actually just inspect and replace frequently
3. A subframe brace as you described

 

The ST rear sway doesn't connect to the rear subframe. On EF Civic/CRXs it has brackets that attach where the rear tow hooks are so there's no need for rear subframe reinforcement. The only thing you have to do with that bar is weld an extra tab on the bracket that connects the bar to the rear shock bolt. It only has one tab included so it allows the bracket to rotate on the bolt.

Also take a look at The Redshift Coilovers, I ordered a set of the double adjustable about a month ago and I'm currently patiently awaiting their arrival. Chris knows his stuff and I have heard good things about them. He guts BC coils entirely and rebuilds them with all Bilstein internals. https://store.redshiftmotorsports.co...ved-series.htm

I'll be running 10k/10k (550/550) Hyperco springs to start. Possibly ordering a set of 12k later for the front or rear depending on how I want to adjust the balance. I'm currently on worn 8k/4k coilovers with the ST rear sway set to full stiff and the stock front bar.

*Also I'm running a staggered tire setup so that is a factor in spring rates. Currently 245/40/15 on 15x9" front and 205/50/15 on 15x7" rear. I have 225/45/15 on 15x9" for the rear as soon as I build some rear flares.

 

Sorry you're right. I typed subframe but actually meant chassis. The sway bar brackets bolt to the rails on the chassis, and that's what tears. Subframe cracking is a totally separate issue.

 

Are the DA spindles that much beefier than the Si spindles? I know the DA spindles are a touch taller for the UCA. I also heard a rumor that the SIR spindles have a quicker steering ratio (shorter tie rod arm). If so, it may be worth trying to hunt down. Or maybe not if they're not beefed up over the Si version.

 

It's actually the front hubs and larger bearings that you're after. For some reason the CRX Si front hubs crack on the inside while the DA Integra ones are just big enough not to. The fact that the spindles are taller helps with the geometry a bit (as long as the car isn't too low), but honestly it isn't big enough a difference for you to notice.

I wouldn't worry too much about steering ratio on a track car. The speeds are so high and you turn the car under the brakes anyway so you don't ever put in that much steering lock. We use a stock CRX Si rack and get no complaints from the drivers.

 

lot of dog leg or 3 wheel motion is caused by the rear shock not designed with enough droop travel though. keep that in mind.

 

speaking of DMS. i had bought a used set but never got to try them. i sold to another Honda racer few years ago... i wonder how he liked them. let me go ask...

 

This is also very true. I'm running the Koni race double adjustable shocks. I might have the only set in the country that isn't shortened. On a monotube shock, shortening the shock body will automatically limit droop. I also have the guts and shaft length adjusted... jacking my car in the air, you would think its a jeep with all the down travel.

 

I've got sort of the opposite problem. There aren't many track-worthy available options out there for my chassis (90-93 Integra) as many others. I tried a set of "RACE" valved and shortened EF Koni shocks but they were way too short. Max ride height was slammed and no droop. Sold those and found some DA Koni yellows that ProParts rebuilt/revalved for me with their RACE valving. My understanding was that they were going to shorten them a little as well which would be needed since even a little amount of lowering on this chassis yields very little compression travel as the bodies are really tall. I wasn't smart enough to give them fully detailed specs and now I ended up with shocks in the rear with minimal droop and the front has massive amounts of droop but it's not usable because after only a little bit of droop the spring is fully decompressed and loose on the shock. I'd love to get another setup or have these shocks reworked so they're better but not sure how to give them the right specs for my situation.

 

you have PM... there are some measurements to take.

I can tell you, I am running extended top hats on all 4 corners. I am running helper springs in the rear and 8 inch springs. up front i'm on 6 inch springs (probably need 7s)....

 

You can try using helper springs. We ran some 4" 4lb/in helper springs on our university baja SAE car to get the correct ride height with enough droop. You'll need spring seats to go with them, we machined ours from delrin but there's plenty of choices out there. We got our springs from D Faulkner since we ran some funky home brew shocks with 2 1/4" ID springs. Helper Springs | D Faulkner Springs LLP

 

While ASR makes some nice parts, the "ghettoracer" in me consider some of their parts way expensive... I think you're right in mentioning there are cheaper "working" alternatives that's worth investigating...