Hey guys, I've been looking for a daily driver that gets 30+ mpg as a daily for my commute to work. I get around 32 mpg in my 16' WRX currently, but I plan on selling it buying a daily, a bike, and building one of my many projects on the to-do list as my racecar. Right here I'm going to lose a bunch of help, I've never been a huge fan of Hondas as full on race cars. FWD is a **** poor method on the majority of applications, however there is a niche that Hondas do fill whether it's the best bang for the buck, great fun/eco friendly car, or a great introductory car to our breed.
The 6th gen civic is my favorite body style with a budget of 3-4k. I've tried to do research on this but your community's searches are filled with dead end teenagers asking redundant questions, so I'm sorry in advance for being apart of the problem and less of the solution. I've read about both the "GSR engine?" and the "b18?". I came across these two because I'm looking to turbo the car in that budget. I HATE to aim for numbers, but its almost a requirement to formulate a build path so lets say 300hp-300tq stock bottom end. Any type of fabrication will be done myself, including a complete optimal FWD suspension (I spent close to 2 years designing aftermarket suspension). I would also like to aim for a low 12 second car when fully stripped...did I mention I have access to E85 4 out of 12 months?

Basically here are my questions, theyre easilly answered, but I just can't find the time to dig through the dead end threads that have no post-build results.

What engine is the best candidate for a stock bottom end + boosted 300hp?
What transmission would be best not only for power capablities, but also with a great final drive gear ratio? Is a better torque rated clutch the only requirement?
How good is the stock fuel system? safe to assume a Bosch inline/retrofitted Wally 255 would be enough paired with the stock return line?
How shitty are the stock axles?
Best tuning options?

 

First off welcome... secondly stock motor b18c1 "GSR" with turbo kit will hit 300whp but it all depends on combination of parts same goes with the b18b "LS" which stock axles can support but longevity goes out the window with any higher than stock power builds. 300 hp-300tq isn't going to happen. B series arent EJs trust me I came from the subie world! wally 255 is fine for fuel pump. FWD retains more power over AWD and RWD so im confused how its a **** poor method especially when FWD cars have hit 8s...

 

Here is your 6th gen hatchback hitting in the 8's:

 

Or how about a 7 second FWD civic (my favorite, 5th gen hatch):

 

Anyways, something you could use.

If you are concerned about your axles, The Drive Shaft Shop provides 3.9 axles that are rated to about 450 HP if I remember correctly.

 

OP listen go full boss level, get a B20 motor, throw a low boost turbo on it, mild cam kit, and trim it out with all the goodies (like a cold air kit), enjoy the higher torque output of the larger b20 over the b18.... although b18 is still an excellent motor.

Dont forget to go fast you need top tier tires, and top shelf brake kits and axles.

 

Thanks for the responses guys. Brakes, coilovers, and all safety will be performed as well including a possible roll bar for my own peace of mind. In regards to the fast 1/4 times I'm fully aware that FWDs can be made to have potential and for me to say it's a complete waste of time would lead to non advancements in other automotive areas and that's not what I'm trying to say. My statement was in regard to AWD and RWD being a much better starting platform for the budget racer, for example You have people in the 8s and 9s on stock bottom end Gen III and Gen IV small block Chevys, not due to being a better motor, but less power is required when you have cheap options for solid axles, gear ratio, and better weight transfer. What is the price difference between the Different B-series engines? I've looked them up on local listings but they're not very popular around my area so it's hard to gauge if I'm overpaying. Thanks again!

 

It really depends on which B series you are buying. The B18C and B18C5 are going to be pretty pricey as they are the Type R motor already pretty maxed out NA wise.

While the B18B is a common non vtec motor found quite prevelantly in many junk yards. As is the B20 (not sure variant) as it's in a lot of the CRV's.

The other one that is highly sought after and is expensive is the B16A2 I think it is from the SiR. It's wanted for the head to put onto a B20 bottom end or even the B18B block to make it a vtec motor (known as the LS-VTEC motor).

Wikipedia has a page for B series honda motors just like they do for the d-series SOHC motors. It will tell you all the cars and markets the motors are found in. The higher end the car (Si, SiR, Type R) will of course command a lot more for the motor.

You can also get an idea by scoping the jdm imports motors for the various B series motors they have, if it's from a high end the price is obviously more. Their pricing will give you a pretty decent baseline to know if you are over paying or not, for your area.

Oh and on brakes, if you don't mind going up to 15 inch wheels, Wilwood makes a 4 piston and even a 6 piston caliper for the Honda's in this era if I remember correctly:

http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Bra...ption=Coupe+EX

 

Stock internals, your best bet is a GSR. The GSR (B18C1) is a variant of the B18 engine, they aren't two separate things. Although when many people say "B18" they are referring to the B18a or a B18b1 engines, the non-performance-oriented variant. The GSR has a better flowing head, VTEC, and stronger rod bolts, as well as a girdle that increases rigidity. For stock internals that's the one you're going to want to get. 300whp and 300 lb./ft of tq is going to be pushing the limits of reliability of any of the engines without internal work, but it can be done. I recommend either biting the bullet and getting forged internals or adjusting your goals.

I feel you on the "wrong way drive", for putting power down, but keep in mind that FWD applications have the least amount of drivetrain losses of any setup. You're coming from an AWD vehicle so your power goals are going to be inflated. 200whp in a civic is going to feel like close to 280whp in a Subaru, "butt dyno-wise", power to weight and drivetrain losses factored in.

 

I think @Caoboy is selling his B18C1.

Otherwise, Hmotorsonline is a good source for engine price comparison and is one of the most reliable places to buy from.

 

Great info, really appreciate it. There are PLENTY of salvage yards around my area so a budget build with a moderately fresh B18-B20 is definitely feasible. Here's my engine/trans list so far...

B20B (w/P8R Heads)- $400
Holset HX35 - $200
Used Quality WG - $120
Head Studs - $120
LS Trans - $300
XTD Clutch - $120 (This seems a little too good to be true are these trash?)
Intercooler - $100
Wally 255 - $120
Fluids & Maintenance - $200
Material for fabrications of intake, IC plumbing, and exhaust - $150
Current Total - $1830

What would I be looking at tuning wise?

 

Those seem expensive, the more I look into this the more I'm finding out Honda's aren't for me... My old SRT4 made 300hp - 400 ft-lbs of torque to the wheels for less than $1k in bolt-ons, so maybe I'll just go with that route again for a daily driver.

 

You should look at the limits of a b20 block before you dive into boosting one. Siamese cylinders are no joke. tuning wise I recommend hondata. as for AWD and RWD platforms the costs will balance out with FWD. youll spend more with rwd and awd at the beginning but have more beginning power. fwd spend less but have more building power. like you said cheap power. replacement for displacement is power to weight in my opinion.

 

I can't say I'm versed with all the car designations that have been being thrown out there but it seems to me you are comparing a 4 banger (Honda) to a flat 6 (subie)....

The more cylinders, the more the torque. Just like comparing a 6 cylinder to an 8 cylinder isn't a fair comparison in my opinion.

If you have your heart set on the torque then start looking at Accord motors, I believe they are the J series. The draw back is they weigh more so throw the weight balance off and require a lot more front suspension configuring etc. And they aren't as easily plug and play. But it will give you the added torque due to being a six cylinder.

You don't have to stay with Honda, but if you do, you might enjoy what you get in the end if you aren't expecting to have what you have with another larger motor.

Really, scrap all the motors you've talked about so far and shoot for a turbo diesel, $30,000 and you get a 600 HP 800 ft-lb torque beast. It's the Vegas Rat Rod way. I'm sure you could make it work.

 

the EJ is a flat 4 tomcat39

 

Thanks for the non-biased outlook you've been quite helpful, It appears that Honda's are more of a lifestyle/community than a cheap racing endeavor. Honda's offer many things but are still prone to the ol' saying Reliability, Power, and Cheap you can only have two. I think I'm going to stick with my initial plan of Chevy LS swapping an S10. For the same cost I can have a junkyard built ~400hp motor with a stock bottom end while still having plenty of reliability, convenience of a truck, and getting close to 30 mpg. Although this is not unique I'm 100% about efficiency, and I believe that is partially what makes me different from a lot of your community. Thanks everyone for all of the input, and maybe I will end up here again in the future.

 

No worries.

In reality I think most car segments are more about lifestyle/community. Chevy vs Mopar vs Ford. I mean it's not cheap to bring the old classics back but guys blow 100 grand for a car they can only sell for 65 grand, happens all the time.

The respect for Honda has to do with a couple of details, one is the innovation (i.e. Civic VX getting 55+ MPG back in the 90's, comparable to today's hybrids, or how about the CVCC catless low emission engine) and another detail is the over engineering done so the car lasts 20 years on stock parts with ease, and lastly, the ease to work on them, at least 6th gen on back. The engineers actually took repair into the equation when designing these cars.

Anyways, if you do make it back this way, I'm sure there will still be lots of love of Hondas prevalent to be shared.

All the best to you.

 

^^^ I forgot one of the most known innovations, vtec expanding the power band from a 2000 RPM window into a 4-4.5K rpm wide window on a SOHC alone. Not sure how wide the window is on DOHC, let alone iVtec.....

I am assuming you are talking the subie boxer engine is the EJ flat 4?

Being a boxer (flat pancake motor more like a V4) engine, does it cancel out the vibrational issues of 4 bangers or is it limited in displacement just like in-line 4 bangers?

And just for my knowledge, is it the turbo that is getting the extra torque out of the motors? Because, everything I've seen NA, torque numbers is mostly dependent on displacement. Big V8's and V6's produce much higher torque numbers naturally over the smaller displacement 4 cylinders. Some of them produce higher torque than they do HP while the NA 4 banger usually tends to produce slightly less torque than it's HP result.

And it was my understanding, displacement is limited because of vibrational issues in the 4 banger that aren't present in 6 and 8 cylinders for some reason.

 

The vibration issues aren't as bad in engine's with more cylinders due to having more strokes contributing to spin the crankshaft. There are too many factors to list here but there legitimately is no replacement for displacement, and having higher displacement will always trump a lower displacement with the same modifications. The boxer engine design is the best and most efficient as far as vibration goes, due to the opposing crank journal being located 180* on the other side of the shaft. This allows it to absorb and vibration while sending the power back in the other direction. If there's anything I've learned from my Honda research it's that they are light, thus allowing them to be moderately quick and in stock form are easily maintained and are reliable when done so, however as far as performance goes there engines and transmission have nothing special to offer.

 

Except Most HP Per Liter For N/A Stock Engine.

 

How is that meaningful? I feel as if thats a poor excuse to justify dumping all of your money into a **** platform. Lets take this for example.

B16A6 (1996-2000) 230 lbs
97.3 ci
158 hp @ 7800 rpm & 111 lb ft @ 7000

LM7 (2000-2003) 518 lbs
285 @ 5200 rpm & 325 lb ft @ 4000

Here's my favorite part... the B16A cost ~$1600 while the LM7 cost ~$500
So lets get this straight, the B16 has a much worst torque per lb output while also being at a higher rpm, the LM7 cost is much less, the LM7 power band is much better, the LM7 has a rock solid bottom end that has been used in stock form to push cars into the 9s but your defending your honda engines with... more power per liter?

 

1600?? WOW... Where did you get that price? btw most Hp per liter isn't the b16. you clearly have a bias objective here so its pointless to continue convo. good luck

 

You are not comparing apples to apples here.

LM7 is a 5.3L V8.

And you compare it to a 1.6L inline 4.

That would be like comparing the LS1 to a classic VW beetle motor.

But just for fun, lets break this down. 158 HP to 1.6L The B16A6

Now your engine, 285 HP to 5.8L the LM7. To be in range it should be pushing out 575 HP at least on that 5.8L. But instead it's only getting HALF the HP per liter.

So yes, more HP per liter with the Honda engine. Much more efficient.

Apples to Apples my friend, not Apples to Persimmons.

What I'm curious to see is the Dyno's of NA V8's. I am curious to see how wide the power band is on typical V8's.

 

Oh and if you are thinking the B16A6 is a one off,

The B18C 1.8L gets 197 BHP, that is more than 100 HP per liter.

So even comparing that to the LS6 5.7L at 400 BHP, still falling short of the Honda efficiency.

 

How is comparing the 2 not acceptable they're both engines? What good does HP vs Displacement even prove? You realize that making things bigger doesn't equal a consistent growth in power due to more rotating mass & friction correct? It's not impressive that small engines make efficient power, because the only way you can make the most "efficient" power is through a small engines. And if my opinion is biased explain to me how? I am about cost efficiency and am willing to learn everything I can, so If I'm wrong please prove it.