D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
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From: Canada, Jamaica and Florida
D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
I am in Jamaica and have 1994 Civic Coupe Japanese assembled 2 door Coupe, similar to US EX. It does not start, and when it does it is unreliable preventing me from using it.Symptoms:Ignition on...before cranking, I will hear the relay clicking without hearing the pump run. Crank produces no firing. There are instances where this works as normal but may be good for a day or even a couple minutes, then back to the clicking and no pump run. I have been having this for several months but has now got worst. could this be the ECM or its sensors?
Suggestion being sought and would be appreciated. I am quite technical and can support any suggestions. There are no supporting dealers here as the car is older than there support range. I am mostly on my own...but love driving this vehicle through the back roads of Jamaica and like to keep it going!
Have read several threads:1- suggested I change the pump...did so. same issue.2- Today I changed the Prime relay with same issue.
Suggestion being sought and would be appreciated. I am quite technical and can support any suggestions. There are no supporting dealers here as the car is older than there support range. I am mostly on my own...but love driving this vehicle through the back roads of Jamaica and like to keep it going!
Have read several threads:1- suggested I change the pump...did so. same issue.2- Today I changed the Prime relay with same issue.
Hysterically Calm
Joined: Jan 2013
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
Then this thread, RonJ runs through all the primary tests for no fuel pump priming on the 5th gen. Some fuses to check, re-soldering of the main relay, ground G101 and lastly, replace ECU:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...oting-3098721/
And this post has the FSM on the fuel pump itself:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-.../#post33198897
And this post is how to properly check fuses:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...fuses-3079359/
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...oting-3098721/
And this post has the FSM on the fuel pump itself:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-.../#post33198897
And this post is how to properly check fuses:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...fuses-3079359/
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
Have read several threads:1- suggested I change the pump...did so. same issue.2- Today I changed the Prime relay with same issue.
It does not start, and when it does it is unreliable preventing me from using it.Symptoms:Ignition on...before cranking, I will hear the relay clicking without hearing the pump run.
If fuel pressure looks ok, do you get spark to each cylinder? Here's a tutorial:
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From: Canada, Jamaica and Florida
Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
Hey Tomcat39 and civicservice, thanks for responses:
Not completely surprisingly, it started ok this morning! But will not be reliable. When I am driving I will see the Tach go wild and may settle again and keep running or goes more wild then drop to zero and the engine dies, may restart or not...seems something intermittent. Then after time it will again start...like this morning.
Tomcat39: The G101 is secure, but I will unbolt, sand and clean the connection and re-secure. Very good drawings where can I get such a manual? Thanks.
CivicService: Unfortunately I have already replaced the pump and relay. Wen it doesn't start, I have good spark.
More observations: Normal operation, the CEL goes bright during the prime duration and stays bright till I crank and the engine starts! When this issue occurs while driving and the tach jumps around, the CEL flashes (less bright) in unison with the Tach, if the engine dies, the CEL stays darker. When I try to start, the CEL stays darker and wont prime nor start but I hear and feel the relay clicking. It will start if I turn on and off and when the CEL goes bright and I hear the pump does its prime cycle.
Not completely surprisingly, it started ok this morning! But will not be reliable. When I am driving I will see the Tach go wild and may settle again and keep running or goes more wild then drop to zero and the engine dies, may restart or not...seems something intermittent. Then after time it will again start...like this morning.
Tomcat39: The G101 is secure, but I will unbolt, sand and clean the connection and re-secure. Very good drawings where can I get such a manual? Thanks.
CivicService: Unfortunately I have already replaced the pump and relay. Wen it doesn't start, I have good spark.
More observations: Normal operation, the CEL goes bright during the prime duration and stays bright till I crank and the engine starts! When this issue occurs while driving and the tach jumps around, the CEL flashes (less bright) in unison with the Tach, if the engine dies, the CEL stays darker. When I try to start, the CEL stays darker and wont prime nor start but I hear and feel the relay clicking. It will start if I turn on and off and when the CEL goes bright and I hear the pump does its prime cycle.
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Hysterically Calm
Joined: Jan 2013
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
You CEL should only stay bright for about 2 seconds as the fuel pump primes then shut off.
CEL staying bright indefinitely until you actually crank the motor is something wrong.
If you cannot pull codes from the service connector when the CEL stays on bright and does not turn off, this is an indication of a bad ECU.
When I get home I will PM you with information regarding the factory service manual.
Lastly, did you read the threads I posted concerning no fuel pump prime? If you did, you should have checked a couple of fuses mentioned in the first thread.
CEL staying bright indefinitely until you actually crank the motor is something wrong.
If you cannot pull codes from the service connector when the CEL stays on bright and does not turn off, this is an indication of a bad ECU.
When I get home I will PM you with information regarding the factory service manual.
Lastly, did you read the threads I posted concerning no fuel pump prime? If you did, you should have checked a couple of fuses mentioned in the first thread.
Old Fart
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From: kelowna, bc, canada
Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
A "jumping tach" points to an ICM problem, either the ICM is going bad or connections to the ICM are bad, unplug ICM terminals, "pinch" them a little tighter with plyers and reconnect to see if that is the problem.
You also said you can hear the "clicking" but not the fuel pump, that points to a problem with the PGM-FI Main Relay, but because you replaced it and if that was a new PGM-FI Main Relay it points to a wiring issue either to the fuel pump from the relay or to the relay, [power and grounds]
The PGM-FI Main Relay has three 12V+ powers going to it
1- 12V+ constant, hot at all times.
2- 12V+ switched, hot in run and start.
3- 12V switched, hot only when cranking to start
The above can be tested with a 12V test light, unplug the relay probe the leads until you find the three powers then test them for consistency, unplug the starter exciter lead from the starter solenoid to prevent engine cranking during testing .
Confirm that the 12V+ constant has power on it at all times no mater what the ign. position is and how many times you switch the ign. on and to crank,
Confirm the 12V+ switched lead has power on it any time the ign. switch is turned on to run and start/crank no mater how many ties you do it.
Confirm the 2nd 12V+ switched lead has power on it anytime ign. switch is turned to crank, no mater how many times you do it.
There are two grounds to the PGM-FI Main Relay, one is the relays ground, [fuel injector relay] it is a constant ground it is the one at the thermostat housing it should have full continuity to chassis ground at all times.
The 2nd ground is supplied by the ECU/ECM it is for the fuel pump relays coil, it is there when ign. switch is turned on and until the CEL goes out and then again once engine is cranking and running.The last two leads are 12V+ output leads, one from the fuel injector relay to the fuel injectors, IGP1 and !GP2 of the ECU/ECM and some engine sensors/solenoids the other is from the fuel pump relay to the fuel pump.The first one, fuel injector relays output can be tested at the injectors and at the ECU/ECM, they must have power on them anytime ign. is on or in crank position, it is the lead that is the same color on all four injectors and should also be the same color, [and only two of that color] at the ECU/ECM.
To test the fuel pump power lead test it at the fuel pump connecter under the back seat.The ground out of the ECU/ECM can be a bit of a pain to test if it is intermittent, so what I do is back-feed a lead into that terminal on the PGM-FI Main Relay plug and have it handy, when you do not hear the fuel pump priming ground the other end of that lead to chassis ground and if pump primes, [and engine starts] you know the problem has to be the ECU/ECM or wiring between the ECU/ECM and the PGM-FI Main Relay.
Sorry description is so long but I do not have access to a JDM wiring harness guide for wire colors. 94
You also said you can hear the "clicking" but not the fuel pump, that points to a problem with the PGM-FI Main Relay, but because you replaced it and if that was a new PGM-FI Main Relay it points to a wiring issue either to the fuel pump from the relay or to the relay, [power and grounds]
The PGM-FI Main Relay has three 12V+ powers going to it
1- 12V+ constant, hot at all times.
2- 12V+ switched, hot in run and start.
3- 12V switched, hot only when cranking to start
The above can be tested with a 12V test light, unplug the relay probe the leads until you find the three powers then test them for consistency, unplug the starter exciter lead from the starter solenoid to prevent engine cranking during testing .
Confirm that the 12V+ constant has power on it at all times no mater what the ign. position is and how many times you switch the ign. on and to crank,
Confirm the 12V+ switched lead has power on it any time the ign. switch is turned on to run and start/crank no mater how many ties you do it.
Confirm the 2nd 12V+ switched lead has power on it anytime ign. switch is turned to crank, no mater how many times you do it.
There are two grounds to the PGM-FI Main Relay, one is the relays ground, [fuel injector relay] it is a constant ground it is the one at the thermostat housing it should have full continuity to chassis ground at all times.
The 2nd ground is supplied by the ECU/ECM it is for the fuel pump relays coil, it is there when ign. switch is turned on and until the CEL goes out and then again once engine is cranking and running.The last two leads are 12V+ output leads, one from the fuel injector relay to the fuel injectors, IGP1 and !GP2 of the ECU/ECM and some engine sensors/solenoids the other is from the fuel pump relay to the fuel pump.The first one, fuel injector relays output can be tested at the injectors and at the ECU/ECM, they must have power on them anytime ign. is on or in crank position, it is the lead that is the same color on all four injectors and should also be the same color, [and only two of that color] at the ECU/ECM.
To test the fuel pump power lead test it at the fuel pump connecter under the back seat.The ground out of the ECU/ECM can be a bit of a pain to test if it is intermittent, so what I do is back-feed a lead into that terminal on the PGM-FI Main Relay plug and have it handy, when you do not hear the fuel pump priming ground the other end of that lead to chassis ground and if pump primes, [and engine starts] you know the problem has to be the ECU/ECM or wiring between the ECU/ECM and the PGM-FI Main Relay.
Sorry description is so long but I do not have access to a JDM wiring harness guide for wire colors. 94
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From: Canada, Jamaica and Florida
Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
Tomcat: My writings were unclear, but the behaviors of the CEL is as you describe. I sometime will turn ignition on and wait for the prime timeout and see the CEL go off! But when things are wrong, the CEL is dim and never goes of and the relay will be clicking at a rate of 2 approx. per second. It never stays bright longer than sec when things are ok. I have gone through the links provided before. But was unable to as suggested in one to undo the G101 and clean with steel wool. I will do this in the morning as I worked for a living today (in IT and work at home). Fuses are good.
Would really like the manual and do not have access to ver. 1 CEL reader here...gotta buy one next time back in Fla., 2 weeks.
Would really like the manual and do not have access to ver. 1 CEL reader here...gotta buy one next time back in Fla., 2 weeks.
Hysterically Calm
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,439
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
There is no CEL reader for OBD1 cars and the D15B7 should be an OBD1 car.
You jump the service connector and read CEL blink codes.
You can find out how by looking in the FAQ sticky at the top of this forum.
Also, fcm has provided a great indication of some things to look into, he's quite knowledgeable and is providing you some experienced insight.
I can only direct you to the FSM as I don't have even remotely the experience as most of these guys.
This right here:
You jump the service connector and read CEL blink codes.
You can find out how by looking in the FAQ sticky at the top of this forum.
Also, fcm has provided a great indication of some things to look into, he's quite knowledgeable and is providing you some experienced insight.
I can only direct you to the FSM as I don't have even remotely the experience as most of these guys.
This right here:
A "jumping tach" points to an ICM problem, either the ICM is going bad or connections to the ICM are bad, unplug ICM terminals, "pinch" them a little tighter with plyers and reconnect to see if that is the problem.
You also said you can hear the "clicking" but not the fuel pump, that points to a problem with the PGM-FI Main Relay, but because you replaced it and if that was a new PGM-FI Main Relay it points to a wiring issue either to the fuel pump from the relay or to the relay, [power and grounds]
The PGM-FI Main Relay has three 12V+ powers going to it
1- 12V+ constant, hot at all times.
2- 12V+ switched, hot in run and start.
3- 12V switched, hot only when cranking to start
The above can be tested with a 12V test light, unplug the relay probe the leads until you find the three powers then test them for consistency, unplug the starter exciter lead from the starter solenoid to prevent engine cranking during testing .
Confirm that the 12V+ constant has power on it at all times no mater what the ign. position is and how many times you switch the ign. on and to crank,
Confirm the 12V+ switched lead has power on it any time the ign. switch is turned on to run and start/crank no mater how many ties you do it.
Confirm the 2nd 12V+ switched lead has power on it anytime ign. switch is turned to crank, no mater how many times you do it.
There are two grounds to the PGM-FI Main Relay, one is the relays ground, [fuel injector relay] it is a constant ground it is the one at the thermostat housing it should have full continuity to chassis ground at all times.
The 2nd ground is supplied by the ECU/ECM it is for the fuel pump relays coil, it is there when ign. switch is turned on and until the CEL goes out and then again once engine is cranking and running.The last two leads are 12V+ output leads, one from the fuel injector relay to the fuel injectors, IGP1 and !GP2 of the ECU/ECM and some engine sensors/solenoids the other is from the fuel pump relay to the fuel pump.The first one, fuel injector relays output can be tested at the injectors and at the ECU/ECM, they must have power on them anytime ign. is on or in crank position, it is the lead that is the same color on all four injectors and should also be the same color, [and only two of that color] at the ECU/ECM.
To test the fuel pump power lead test it at the fuel pump connecter under the back seat.The ground out of the ECU/ECM can be a bit of a pain to test if it is intermittent, so what I do is back-feed a lead into that terminal on the PGM-FI Main Relay plug and have it handy, when you do not hear the fuel pump priming ground the other end of that lead to chassis ground and if pump primes, [and engine starts] you know the problem has to be the ECU/ECM or wiring between the ECU/ECM and the PGM-FI Main Relay.
Sorry description is so long but I do not have access to a JDM wiring harness guide for wire colors. 94
You also said you can hear the "clicking" but not the fuel pump, that points to a problem with the PGM-FI Main Relay, but because you replaced it and if that was a new PGM-FI Main Relay it points to a wiring issue either to the fuel pump from the relay or to the relay, [power and grounds]
The PGM-FI Main Relay has three 12V+ powers going to it
1- 12V+ constant, hot at all times.
2- 12V+ switched, hot in run and start.
3- 12V switched, hot only when cranking to start
The above can be tested with a 12V test light, unplug the relay probe the leads until you find the three powers then test them for consistency, unplug the starter exciter lead from the starter solenoid to prevent engine cranking during testing .
Confirm that the 12V+ constant has power on it at all times no mater what the ign. position is and how many times you switch the ign. on and to crank,
Confirm the 12V+ switched lead has power on it any time the ign. switch is turned on to run and start/crank no mater how many ties you do it.
Confirm the 2nd 12V+ switched lead has power on it anytime ign. switch is turned to crank, no mater how many times you do it.
There are two grounds to the PGM-FI Main Relay, one is the relays ground, [fuel injector relay] it is a constant ground it is the one at the thermostat housing it should have full continuity to chassis ground at all times.
The 2nd ground is supplied by the ECU/ECM it is for the fuel pump relays coil, it is there when ign. switch is turned on and until the CEL goes out and then again once engine is cranking and running.The last two leads are 12V+ output leads, one from the fuel injector relay to the fuel injectors, IGP1 and !GP2 of the ECU/ECM and some engine sensors/solenoids the other is from the fuel pump relay to the fuel pump.The first one, fuel injector relays output can be tested at the injectors and at the ECU/ECM, they must have power on them anytime ign. is on or in crank position, it is the lead that is the same color on all four injectors and should also be the same color, [and only two of that color] at the ECU/ECM.
To test the fuel pump power lead test it at the fuel pump connecter under the back seat.The ground out of the ECU/ECM can be a bit of a pain to test if it is intermittent, so what I do is back-feed a lead into that terminal on the PGM-FI Main Relay plug and have it handy, when you do not hear the fuel pump priming ground the other end of that lead to chassis ground and if pump primes, [and engine starts] you know the problem has to be the ECU/ECM or wiring between the ECU/ECM and the PGM-FI Main Relay.
Sorry description is so long but I do not have access to a JDM wiring harness guide for wire colors. 94
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
CEL should be either on or off. If it comes on dim, likely the ECU system is overall losing its supply of power or ground.
Start the engine, go under the hood and wiggle the G101 wires see if that causes it to falter or stall. Repeat with any other wiring you can reach under the hood or dash.
Start the engine, go under the hood and wiggle the G101 wires see if that causes it to falter or stall. Repeat with any other wiring you can reach under the hood or dash.
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From: Canada, Jamaica and Florida
Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
Improvement, but can't say conclusive so early...I cleaned up the G101 connection, which is an impressive ground terminal! I cleaned to bare metal all four connection surfaces and all seem well. I guess after 22 years and several head repairs it needed it! I was able to drive it to my mechanic for other work needed...like a decarb kit for the head, valves etc. which should be back on the road by tomorrow.
I had not recognized the significance of the G101 till I worked on it, recognizing its quality and essential grounding for the ECU which I assume is also referenced above as the ICM?
FCM: Lengthy is no issue as it is well written and clearly understood by the reader. On a previous situation, I had remove the ICM (same as ECU, I hope) and cleaned the contacts with contact cleaner and an eraser, but did not dare to pinch them. Which I will as it appears the ECU is fine. I had already tested the pump wiring and even replaced the pump and the relay was replaced with a new one...I now have a spare...LOL.
mk378: Your dimmed CEL analysis made perfect sense and added to my focus on the G101! I will do more wiring analysis once on the road again.
Tomcat: You are the man...thank you...a little info on the vehicle...
It is the 1994 Civic Coupe and to the best of my ability is the chassis used in the Fast and Furious movie chase scenes, it has the stock D15B7 engine with its vastly improved airflow 16 valve aspiration and manual transmission. Chassis was made in USA then shipped to Japan and fitted for right-hand drive configuration for use in Jamaica where driving is on the left side of the road. It belonged to family here from new. I acquired it 10 years ago and have restored it to stock, using the stock ECU chip! Hence I have a Haynes manual, but does not cover the left hand drive version, I have been unsuccessful in finding such. I have an ongoing Speedometer issue which I will create a new thread.
Service and support here is poor to non-existent!
I had not recognized the significance of the G101 till I worked on it, recognizing its quality and essential grounding for the ECU which I assume is also referenced above as the ICM?
FCM: Lengthy is no issue as it is well written and clearly understood by the reader. On a previous situation, I had remove the ICM (same as ECU, I hope) and cleaned the contacts with contact cleaner and an eraser, but did not dare to pinch them. Which I will as it appears the ECU is fine. I had already tested the pump wiring and even replaced the pump and the relay was replaced with a new one...I now have a spare...LOL.
mk378: Your dimmed CEL analysis made perfect sense and added to my focus on the G101! I will do more wiring analysis once on the road again.
Tomcat: You are the man...thank you...a little info on the vehicle...
It is the 1994 Civic Coupe and to the best of my ability is the chassis used in the Fast and Furious movie chase scenes, it has the stock D15B7 engine with its vastly improved airflow 16 valve aspiration and manual transmission. Chassis was made in USA then shipped to Japan and fitted for right-hand drive configuration for use in Jamaica where driving is on the left side of the road. It belonged to family here from new. I acquired it 10 years ago and have restored it to stock, using the stock ECU chip! Hence I have a Haynes manual, but does not cover the left hand drive version, I have been unsuccessful in finding such. I have an ongoing Speedometer issue which I will create a new thread.
Service and support here is poor to non-existent!
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
The ICM is the Ignition Control Module. It is inside the distributor. Its function is to amplify low-power pulses from the ECU up to where they can drive the coil and make a spark. In other words, the ECU synchronizes itself to the rotation of the engine, computes the spark timing and sends properly-timed pulses back to the distributor's ICM, each pulse results in a spark.
Thread Starter
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From: Canada, Jamaica and Florida
Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
mk378: Thank you for the clarification, I replaced the complete distributor in spring this year I purchased from Advanced auto parts and corrected the issue at the time...I now stand educated...and will try FCM suggestion, although I hadn't seen it during short drive this morn. Electronic function an processes understood.
Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
to add- parts store distributors SUCK. i have a bin of dead honda distributors in my basement, more of them are remand units than OEM. when i need a distributor, i either rebuild my own with oe parts, or buy used oem. you should have warranty thru autozone, go get a new one, and prepare to do so every year or two.
Thread Starter
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
Bad news!!!I was on my way for some food when it stalled at the stop sign with the same symptoms, except the relay was clicking on and tried the motor which I could hear trying to start then relay began clicking of and on for a minute or so then went more quiet, implying not enough voltage to sustain operations, after a few minutes of turning ignition off then on the CEL came bright and ran long enough to get home...no food!
I will trace other voltage points if there are others, does the instrument panel provide any voltages to the ECU? Thanks
I will trace other voltage points if there are others, does the instrument panel provide any voltages to the ECU? Thanks
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
eghatch9295: Is there any wiring at the distributor that feeds power to the ECU, I know there are sensors for fuel management, Will try FCM connector crimps, I have a replaced oe distributor which had a working ICM but failed coil.
Hysterically Calm
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
You can buy a new coil for your OE distributor. It's very easy to swap.
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Re: D15B7-1994 Coupe Starting Issue-Fuel
Prognostication: Due to not being able to rely on vehicle starting, I did not get the Top end overhaul done. over the period since my last post 4 days ago, I did everything suggested by all the helpful suggestions! In JM, one cannot get most parts new and often even used! I did get the pump and PGM-FI relay new...but China made! I wont go through all the ( what I call logical) steps to find the answer. I contemplated and even attempted to find a P06 ECU Gen G00 and an ICM... to no avail for either except a possible used ICM. The known symptoms indicated low voltage to the "System"...somehow! This morning it would not start at all and naturally I preferred this as intermittents are very difficult to resolve! I must have made my voltage and/or current readings while "working"!!!
Solution: As indicated earlier, there had been previous head work done and since all normal suggestions didn't appear to work, I had to think outside the proverbial Box...Took my VOM and tested from G101 to thermostat cover...good continuity! I accidentally drop the lead I used to the cap and notice no continuity then connected to the Battery negative with no continuity either! Then back to the cap and had continuity! I know there is a gasket for the thermostat and 2 bolts. However the gasket and oxidized bolts behaved as insulators HERE was the real issue. I made an extended ground connection to the Negative Battery terminal and problem solved, including my jumping Tack needle!!!. Now I will get the top end decarb done and correct the issue with at the thermostat cap.
Thanks to all and saved a bunch of trial and error funds, I am now a proud owner of a new fuel pump and main relay!!! and loser of several months concentrated over the last 2 weeks...LOL.
I also see a potential business here as there are no ECU rebuild shops for any vehicles here, the average mechanic are not mentally nor have the financial ability to do this type of analysis as there are many older vehicles here that are pre electronic FI. I will now focus on my speedo...
Solution: As indicated earlier, there had been previous head work done and since all normal suggestions didn't appear to work, I had to think outside the proverbial Box...Took my VOM and tested from G101 to thermostat cover...good continuity! I accidentally drop the lead I used to the cap and notice no continuity then connected to the Battery negative with no continuity either! Then back to the cap and had continuity! I know there is a gasket for the thermostat and 2 bolts. However the gasket and oxidized bolts behaved as insulators HERE was the real issue. I made an extended ground connection to the Negative Battery terminal and problem solved, including my jumping Tack needle!!!. Now I will get the top end decarb done and correct the issue with at the thermostat cap.
Thanks to all and saved a bunch of trial and error funds, I am now a proud owner of a new fuel pump and main relay!!! and loser of several months concentrated over the last 2 weeks...LOL.
I also see a potential business here as there are no ECU rebuild shops for any vehicles here, the average mechanic are not mentally nor have the financial ability to do this type of analysis as there are many older vehicles here that are pre electronic FI. I will now focus on my speedo...
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