Hey all,
I'm new to this site and need some pride swallowing help. I have a '98 Civic coupe EX with a D16Y8 manual transmission. Yes is a D series so please save the comments on SOHC status
Currently she won't start but first what has been done before the issue started:
External MSD IGN coil, Comp Cams Camshaft, Full tune up, Skunk2 Throttle body and stock bored manifold to match, New OEM Injectors, Cat-Back exhaust/headers, Cold air intake, new Dizzy,
I also rebuilt the engine (due to what I thought was a blown head gasket (wrong) and a difficult to remove timing belt (not broken, just concern over last time it was replaced as I'm not the first owner). And a lot of cosmetic unrelated things… Anyways, rebuild went fine, replaced T-stat, water temp sensor, fan switch, oil press sensor, has new IAC Valve and TPS. She ran great and powerful for a few weeks.
So now that you have a good background (I hope)...
I was out yard-saleing with a friend and it was warmer than usual in WA and after a few stops and shut-offs and re-starts it was hard to start and ran very rough so I shut it off and let it sit for a few min. Tried to start again and just cranks.
Thought was due to heat so we waited a few hours but still no joy. Got it home via tow and got to work. Checked all the obvious; loose connections, fuel level, oil level, coolant level, etc. Getting good strong spark with stock coil and external, good fuel pressure, good timing, no belt jumps, good valve lash, good strong crank, no CEL, just checked CKF and got good reading to ECU, compression is between 190 and 200 on all four. I know the Main relay is good because I hear the clicks from the relay and the pump priming and checked all injectors for 12v plus I can tell they clicking on and off when cranking. I may have forgotten a few things I've done but I'll let you know once you bring them up. I am at a loss here, I'm a pretty good mechanic I think but I don't know what it is besides the ECU, but I absolutely hate throwing money and parts and things without concrete proof. It's not my daily driver but still want it running. Is there anything I'm missing, or a way to check my ECU?

 

What color is your spark? I've only heard bad things about MSD systems.

 

Nice bright blue even with the MSD. But just to be safe I re-installed the stock coil and cap and tried with that too, same results.

 

Pull an injector connector and put leads on it checking for voltage. Have someone crank it.

 

Do it for each injector.

 

Voltage when cranking drops to about 10.5v on each injector. What should the other wire that leads to the ECU be reading? Manuals don't do much for telling what a wire should read in voltage or resistance. Also when I put a stethoscope up to each of them I can hear them clicking on and off.

 

There will be voltage on the yellow/black wire and the ecu will provide ground when it wants to open the injector.

 

Ok that's what I thought. The yellow/black gets good voltage while cranking. From what I can tell the other wire is getting ground from the ECU because the injectors seem to be spraying. I'm really leaning towards a bad ECU though. All the fuses and relays are good, good spark, good fuel, good timing, no blown head gasket. What can I be missing?

 

im thinking bad ecu too, you can pull it and open it up and look for burned spots

 

I pulled the ECU popped the top again. No scorching, no typical burned electronic smell. Nothing looks broken and no bent pins. The only reason I'm reluctant to replace it is the fact that it did start and run rough one time when it first happened and I can tell it tries to start every now and then almost like the timing is off. But with crank pulley at TDC mark, #1 piston at TDC on compression (verified by checking valve lash), the cam gear is perfectly lined up, and rotor points right at the #1 plug on the cap.
I work on electronics in the Navy so I know things do just go bad sometimes, but usually its accompanied with noticeable damage or outside force like overheating and electrical shorts or surges.
Other than all this testing and visual checks is there anyway to check the ECU other than swap with another or buy one?

 

Not really. I'm just really stumped on this. I would probably swap another distributor in. Try this first, turn the ignition to on but don't start the car. Hold the gas down for about five seconds. Then immediately try to start it and see if it starts.

 

Tried starting after pressing accelerator, no luck. Went ahead and ordered a matching ECU online for $45. Hate to do it but I'm lost on this and the price is not horrible. Hope it fixes it. I have most of the stock parts still but really don't see anything besides a sensor or ECU being the problem.

 

ya hopefully that fixes it, otherwise might have to find another distributor

 

So long overdue update here. Had to go out of town for a few weeks. Got the new ECU installed and still no start. holmesmanny, I already changed out the distributor. Not sure if I mentioned that. Got a new one off internet. I finally got a CEL for a bad ECT sensor and read out the resistance on it to be about 2k ohms. Installed a new one but it reads the same and causes CEL for ECT circuit high. got another one and now no light but no start still.
Once again today, I read out the MAP sensor, crank speed flux sensor, TPS, and verified I'm getting fuel and spark. NO vacuum leaks. I even installed my high flow CAT just in case there was a blockage causing too much back pressure.
Every now and then after some long cranks, it starts to turn over but never actually runs, which leads me to think a timing issue, but timing is mechanically good, and it has a new Dizzy. I even compared the resistance readings from the old and new and they both read the same for all 3 internal sensors. The only thing that can't really be checked is fuel regulator since it's vacuum controlled. But spraying starter fluid into intake doesn't make a difference. There has to be something I'm missing here. There is no way two ECUs and two Distributors all have the exact same symptoms. Odds of that have to be in the millions if not completely impossible.
Please help me get this damn thing out of my garage and driving. haha

 

I know you said mechanical timing is good, how about electrical timing?
Also know you said you thought the injectors are spraying , but just for ***** and giggles, try starting the engine then immediately remove the spark plugs and see if they are "wet" with gas.

I will also assume you used an HEI spark tester when checking for spark, if not, do so on all cylinders. 94

 

I was going to say that as well., check the plugs after trying to start the car. if you have fuel and spark it should at least fire and stall. Even if the timing is totally off the car will attempt to start as long as you have both. I had a similar issue a few weeks back. I replaced the 02 sensor and was letting the car idle and it stalled. I ended up swapping coil/ignitor/o2 sensor and when I pulled the plugs they were soaked. Once I cleaned them and swapped back in the old 02 she fired right up. FYI the plugs had already been cleaned before I swapped the O2 so I thought they were good to go and didn't think to check them again.

You have done all of the proper troubleshooting most likely its just something silly you overlooked.

 

Yes I used and HEI tester and got good bluish spark on all four. Also there is most def fuel on the plugs. Have had to pull them and clean multiple times. Also, no carbon build up or anything but they are fuel soaked. How would I check electrical timing?? Can't use the timing light since it won't run.
On another note, I pulled the dizzy and with the key on I can hear the injectors spraying and the pump going when I rotate the gear on it. So at least that further proves the ECU is powering them in conjunction with "rotation" of the dizzy and therefore the cam and engine.
ISUBIEXI,
I am thinking the same thing with the timing, as even an engine with timing pretty far out will at least run horribly or start fully and die. I have never heard of a bad O2 sensor causing complete no start especially since it's not throwing a code but thats really the only sensor I haven't checked. It's just weird that it does fire every now and then just not enough to fully start or run.

 

Forgot to mention also that with dizzy off the the cap off but still connected to external coil, and turning by hand with key on, I was getting spark inside the cap to the the wires. So that shows that the ext coil is creating real good spark.
Also just for ***** and because I'm desperate...I hooked up my timing light and tried to start and saw the timing is damn near lined up as per the crank notches. Considering the engine is cold I'd imagine it would be spot on if the engine were actually able to warm up.

 

took part of timing cover off again to check timing

hard to see but the notches are there.

belt tension is good too. so no jumped teeth

 

I assume you have been over it but have you double checked to make sure there is no blockage stopping air intake or exhaust flow? Maybe you have a totally blocked Cat. I had a Cat that was 80-90% blocked and the intake was incredibly loud. Did you notice any difference in intake sound? You may be able to check to make sure there is some exhaust coming out when you are cranking it or just simply disconnecting the header or downpipe.

It seems like you are getting spark and fuel, maybe your not getting air. Open up the plate on the throttle body and look inside to see if you have anything stuck in there or just your intake in general. Is the opening to the IACV blocked in some way and no air is getting past the throttle body? You could always open up a few vacuum ports and try to get a little extra air in the system. I have to assume the engine is spinning freely with the starter or you would have noted it.

The timing marks are a little hard to gauge from the front, do they line up well in the back? Without a corresponding pic with the crankshaft lined up as well its a little hard to say much about if the timing is correct. I did my timing belt 2-3 weeks back and it was a bit of a struggle, i would line up the timing marks and after getting the belt tight and over the cam gears the crank had always rotated about a tooth off. Took me 4-5 times to get it perfect. Car runs great now.

I had MSD external coil/wires/cap/rotor on my Accord but after a year i ended up pulling it all out and going back to stock. The MSD coil for whatever reason eats ignitors like crazy, i had replaced it at least 4 times, you end up with crank and no start with spark but the spark is weak. My MSD coil died after less than a year and left me stranded for a few days, same thing, i tested for spark and it was there but once i replaced the coil it fired right up. The spark plug wires were a poor fit and kept coming loose. The nub in the cap would break down and cause poor spark to the rotor. When they discontinued my Cap i decided it was way more trouble than it was worth and i went back to stock. I have not had a problem with ignition since then.

 

OK so here's a long recap:
Fuel Sys:
1. Used a noid light on injectors and they all get pulse, (I even cranked with the valve cover off to watch for pulse right as the intake valves open) all good there. Also pulled fuel rail and cranked each injector individually and saw good mist/spray into a jar.
2. Tested fuel pressure. At key on I got about 30psi and at crank was close to 55-60psi both tests after filter. which is new. Also have good new gas with no signs of water in fuel.
3. Redundantly verified the Main Relay is good by hearing pump kick on and clicking as well as a bench test with multimeter.
Ignition:
1. With two different distributors (one new) and with both a stock coil and external MSD I get good blue/white spark on all four using a tester. Also verified all internal sensors have good resistance.
2. Timing is set mechanically and with timing light #1 sparks just where it should. I know the pics don't show too well but I can assure you at TDC the cam gear is perfectly set with good tension can see notches on front and back. (ISUBIEXI, I had issues when I installed mine too)
3. Verified good crank speed flux sensor resistance
Sensors:
1. Good TPS. tested at "idle" and WOT
2. Good ECT sensor.
3. as far as I can test it I have a good MAP sensor. getting voltage and good resistance.
3. good IACV. opens and closes like it should.
4. IAT sensor checks good.
Misc:
1. I did pull the stock cat off and installed a high flow one thinking the same as you did ISUBIEXI. Stock doesn't seem to be blocked though.
2. no blockage in intake mani and opening throttle while cranking does change the crank a bit. Like it getting waaay to much air.
3. Have been using a remote starter wire but have obviously tried traditional way as well.
4. All valves are lashed to specs.
5. I have also removed and blocked all vacuum lines thinking a leak and also opened them up to do like you said and get more air.
6. Played with idle set screw and still nothing.
7. No coolant in oil or vise-versa, good coolant sys pressure
8. All cylinder pressure between 175 and 195.
9. Also have two ECU's I have tried. One new and one original
10. No CEL except for the occasional self inflicted from pulling a sensor.
11. good strong crank with charged battery and don't hear any grinding or hesitation.
12. All relative fuses and relays are good.
I am lost at this point. Tell me to check my tire pressure if that would help and I'll fire up the air compressor haha. At this point I'm worried I'll have to buy a new starter due to wear. Literally the only thing that can't be checked well is the fuel pressure regulator. fuel does flow out of it when cranking and none goes backwards to vacuum line but if it allows too much fuel to release back to the tank could it starve the engine of enough fuel to run?

 

I see everything except a compression test.

Constantly trying to start an engine, [that is getting fuel] that does not start will flood the cylinders and that can lead to "washed" cylinder walls and that can drop compression.

If compression is low squirt in a teaspoon or so of oil into each cylinder and do a bypass jump to crank the engine, ign. off, spark plugs out, crank it over a few times then reinstall spark plugs and try starting again. 94

 

Hey FCM. Did the compression test. It's #8 in misc...#1-180, #2-175, #3-185, #4-195. #2 a little low but not adjacent to the highest reading.
Also, ISUBIEXI...found something interesting out...On the lines of the belt being a tooth off... just for ***** and giggles I went ahead and moved it one tooth in both directions and tried to start it both times. Same problem. Weird thing is...In all three positions I almost get it to run if I retard the dizzy past the "allowable" limits. So with no bolts installed If i go just past the bolt holes it runs for a sec or two (very rough though). Could a brand new dizzy have the same problem as the original? Same goes for the ECU?? I'm so confused now.

 

SORRY!! Correction to that last post!! I'm losing my mind here. When I turned the cam gear clockwise I then needed to advance the timing past the allowable limits to get it to start to run. When turned counterclockwise and when lined up to the notches I had to retard it.

 

Did you put the gear on the Distributor backwards? I cant remember what its called and am too lazy to look it up. You know where the dist connects to the cam shaft. You can install that 180 and you will have a similar issue.