Anyone have any experience with these, particularly on an Integra? I was planning on going with Bilstein Sports and Tein H-Tech springs for my GSR, but came across these while looking into potential coilover options. Looks to be real solid and the shocks are Bilstein monotubes.

These tend to get good reviews from the Euro crowd, but haven't found any Integra related experiences. Just a few reviews from the TL guys.

 

You're going to be hard pressed to find any reviews of these on integras. I think there's a couple civic reviews out there somewhere.

I'm sure they're a great setup for comfortable daily driving. I loved the damping curve of the Bilstein setups that I have tried.

What are you looking to do with the car?

 

The car is just a fun daily driver with no plans for any track days. I live and commute in LA where the roads are pretty bad so I need something that's compliant and with just a 1"-1.5" drop. For those outside of the area, the city's roads are full of cracks and potholes despite the lack of wintry weather here.

I also take the car on lots of road trips and back road/canyon drives for fun, so the primary goal is to have something that's comfortable enough for the daily commute and trips while still being firm and controlled in the turns.

I'm still on stock suspension with 150k+ miles on it, so anything will be a huge upgrade at this point. A spring/shock combo that's similar to a stock ITR setup is primarily what I'm after which is why I'm strongly considering the Bilsten Sport and Tein H-Tech combo. I started checking out the H&R coilovers since it seems like it would be a somewhat similar setup with the bonus of being able to adjust the height. I wouldn't mind if it were slightly stiffer as well since I'm sure the dampers on it will be perfectly matched to whatever the spring rates are.

Also, I'm not looking for adjustable dampers. Just something that's quality and balanced out of the box, and Bilstein seems to do that best.

 

Your mind is in the right place. Yes, Bilstein does do damping very well. The shocks are zinc plated...which is usually a down side...but you live in SoCal.

Look at the ST ST-X also, if you're looking for comfort and sportiness rolled into one. They're made by KW. And they're a little less $$ than the H&R. Although...Bilstein probably makes better dampers...and the H&R's are monotube.

From what people are saying about them, they ride and perform very well. From my experience with Bilstein HD/B8/PSS9, I would say nothing but good things about Bilstein.

Tein makes a Street Basis system which has a euro "feel" to it. But...unfortunately, not as much low speed damping as Euro systems tend to have. Definitely worth looking at still.

As far as adjustable damping goes....I believe that for street cars, the function does have quite a lot of benefits. But you're right in saying that the damping is probably set very well with the H&R system. The damping specs are laid out by H&R, FWIW. Bilstein builds to H&R's specs. It may vary from specs that Bilstein would typically use.

 

B serious, big thanks for the input and suggestions. I'll probably give H&R a call to see what they have to say about the coilovers. Would be good to know where they fall in terms of stiffness, using their own Sport and Race spring lines as a point of reference.

 

Seems like we're in similar positions, I've been looking heavily at the H&R Coilovers the last few weeks. There isn't really much to find on them out there, but I've seen mostly good things where I've been able to find it. I've been researching for my 93 Civic EX Coupe, but most kits we're discussing here are identical between the Integra and Civic. My goals seem pretty similar as I want a mild drop with good handling but also relatively comfortable.

I called H&R a few weeks back and tech support told me the working spring rates were 315 lbs/in front and 235 lbs/in rear. He did state the springs are progressive so I'm not sure if that is an average across the working range or how that is defined. He said he did not have the raw data in front of him. I've been meaning to call back and see if I could get more information, and was also going to see if the ITR kit had different spring rates or the only difference is the rear shock type.

I've also seen the spring rates noted as 385 lbs/in front and 265 lbs/in rear from an old thread where someone had called H&R to inquire. Maybe those are maximum rates near the end of travel, not really sure.

I also looked into the ST coilovers, but those appear to have VERY low rear spring rates. They rear rates are progressive between around 100 lbs/in to 160 lbs/in if memory serves. The fronts are around 350-400 lbs/in I think. Don't quote me on that, was able to find that searching on here and someone on one of the Integra forums actually tested the springs with a KW kit. With the low rear rate they probably ride great.

The H&R coilovers are currently on sale at a few places online. With the sale price there doesn't seem to be any difference in cost between the ST and H&R setups.

FWIW I've also been looking into the Tein Street Advance (Integra kit as I like the rates better) and the Eibach Pro S Coilovers. The Street Advance setup seems like a good deal with the adjustable damping but my concern is if they can go as high as I'd like. Most of Tein's literature shows an ideal lowering range which is a bit lower than 1.5". The Eibach Pro S Coilovers are a bit more expensive, but have 350 lbs/in front and 250 lbs/in rear rates with stainless shocks produced by KW. I've been trying to get some ideas on ride quality for these and it has ranged from "to similar to Koni / GC on full soft" to "firm where you can feel every bump in the road".

Sorry for the book. Been researching this stuff for the last few months. Still haven't made a decision though.

 

The "progressive" nature of the spring is likely just a design similar to the ITR's stock rear spring. The helper spring is fully compressed unless the main spring becomes fully...or almost fully extended. I like that better than having 2 different springs (one main, one helper). The multi-spring systems *can* be noisy at times.

I don't think you can equate the "stiffness" of a system to that of a spring by itself. So much of the ride quality has to do with damper setting.

I have Tein SA's on two of our DD's and I am thoroughly impressed. They are, however, lacking in low speed damping and *overall* refinement that you'd find in even an entry level German system. The ride quality itself is a toss up between Tein SA's and something like KW ST's. The SA's are softer. But the body control of the KW ST's (same car tested) is wayyy better.

 

DJackson1357, thanks a lot for contributing your findings to this. Helps a lot!

I was looking at using the ITR kit for my GSR so I'll report back if I'm able to get a hold of any info from H&R.

From what you've reported about the H&R coilovers, it looks like a Bilstein B8/Sport and Tein H-Tech combo would be a somewhat similar setup minus the height adjust-ability for a few hundred less. The H-Techs (DC2 specs) are progressive with a max rate of 297 lbs/in front and 258 lbs/in rear. The drop is 1.7" front and 0.9" rear on an Integra, so it would possibly sit slightly higher on a Civic due to weight differences. It also looks like the ITR-spec Bilstein B8s would be a firmer damper compared to the H&R spec'd dampers on the coilovers, simply based on the higher spring rates that the B8s can handle.

 

I don't. Having a single progressive spring makes it so that if you want a higher ride height there will be a lot of preload on the spring, causing poor ride comfort. I experience this myself on my KWs (which have the same setup) and a friend who owns the H&Rs here discussed confirmed it as well. IMHO this is the main downside with the H&Rs, beware that performance and comfort will depend on ride height due to the change in preload. This is specially noticeable in the rear. Higher -> less body roll but harsher, lower -> more roll but more comfortable.

 

That is probably true on the "progressive" nature of the spring. Would be nice to have some test data, but that is hard to come by. If I end up going with the H&Rs will have to see if I can get the springs tested at work.

Agreed that the stiffness cannot be fully defined by the spring rates, but it can be used to help compare between different setups. Shock dynos are difficult to come by and ride quality is very subjective so quantifying ride quality gets tough. Just wanted to mention that the KW / ST rear rates seemed a bit soft. I found the data here ->KW variant 2 spring rates found!! - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra The rear rates ended up being closer to 160 lbs/in in the working range. The rear spring really could have been tested a bit farther for good data. Everything I've read on the KW / ST setups is people stating they ride and handle great, so as you've mentioned spring rates aren't everything. I'm also assuming that the KW and ST systems use the same springs, which is true based on what I've been able to find.

Good feedback on the SAs. For the price they seem like a good system.

Glad to help, would be very interested to hear what you find on the H&Rs.

I was also looking into the Bilstein B6 (HD) and B8 (Sport) shocks for my setup. From what I was able to find searching on here the B8s might be a bit overdamped on the H-Tech springs. There used to be shock dynos posted but they appear lost in time. The person who had done the testing did mention the B6 shocks were a great fit with an OTS GC (380/250) setup. I've been leaning towards the B6 shocks if I go that route. Not sure how accurate this info is, just what I was able to dig up.

That is good feedback. However, I'm a bit confused as to how this occurs. The weight on the spring (all else being equal) remains the same no matter the height. The preload on the system may be different, but the spring will still settle at the same height once the vehicle load is placed on it. I would think if the preload was increased too far that there would be a reduction in rebound travel as the preload gets so high that the spring / shock system effectively doesn't compress with a load on it. That would probably be a lot of preload though. Or am I thinking about this incorrectly?

 

The issue you'll run into with H Techs and B6/B8's is that the springs are at their absolute threshold for an acceptable drop up front. 1.7" is quite a bit for the front suspension. And the rates are very soft.

The shocks are also not adjustable. Bilsteins come with lots of bump damping and a little more "easy" rebound damping as compared to Koni yellows. So...the application should be fine. But the valving may not be matched as well as you'd like. And...you can't do much about that besides getting the shocks revalved.

The drop on the Teins is also very nose-heavy. 1.7F and 0.7R. 1" of rake might look weird.

If you're going springs and shocks, Eibach Pro springs (NOT sportline) will be a better fit, I think. Better rates, more conservative front drop, more even overall drop, lifetime warranty.

I think a GOOD matched coilover system will work much better than any spring/shock combo, though. The shocks are designed to work with the springs and the car. Stroke lengths and damper forces are matched to the spring and the car. As long as a reputable company does this, it usually turns out very well.

I really enjoy having adjustable dampers because I do change damper settings for:
-Season (winter vs summer. Seasons don't exist for you, though lol)
-Type of tires (Snow tires feel weird with the damper setting I use for summer tires. Again, not a concern for you).
-Type of trip I'm taking.


I change settings for track use a little bit on cars that go there. But I don't really focus on it too much.

But I digress. I think you'll be happier with the matched damping and height adjustability of the H&R SP or another coilover rather than being confined to one setting via springs/shocks.

 

A spring with say 50 lb of preload will need 50 lb of weight transfer before it starts compressing. So going over bumps it won't move as much, it will feel stiff.

This shows the effect of preload (lower slope curve has more preload):



Too bad I only realized this after spending my hard earned. To me having a progressive spring is just a way for manufacturers to save money vs a more proper main spring + tender spring setup. But well, for the price of the H&Rs I don't think there is really a better option out there.

Well, actually, there is one setup I think you should consider:

- Bilstein Sport shocks + OTS GC springs and collars + a set of helper springs. This should give you a great setup which compared with the big dollar setups would loose only in terms of adjustability and weight.

 

Main and helper springs (seperate) work just the same as main and helper springs (joined).

If you have a 50LB helper spring and a 200LB main spring, and you need to compress the helper spring 1"....that 50LB of force is coming from "preloading" the main spring by 50LB.

 

No. With a separate tender/helper your main spring can be short enough so there is no preload at all (for example on an EG/EK a 200 mm rear spring will do nicely). Plus the tender spring is close to zero rate. I'm talking these: Hypercoils 4" Take-Up Spring - 2-1/2" I.D. - 25 lb. : CS100

It's just to keep the main spring in place in droop. GC kits don't come with them for cost reasons, but it sucks having the rear springs clunk when they settle without them (ask me how I know).

To achieve this alternatively you can go with 2-piece dampers. But good quality ones are expensive.

 

Tein street flex 2 pc dampers are roughly the same price as the H&R SP's.

 

That plot looks like it has two different spring rates on it. Preload on a spring does not change the spring rate or the height the spring is going to end up at with the vehicle load on it. Lets say one corner of the vehicle is 200 lbs and the spring rates are 100 lbs/in. With no preload the spring will compress 2" to carry this load. If the spring is preloaded by 1" to carry 100 lbs, it will take 1" more inch of travel to carry the 200 lbs. The spring is compressed by 2" either way. If too much preload is applied the shock / spring assembly won't compress at all when the vehicle is on the suspension but at that point you have no rebound travel.

Helper springs and tender springs are different. Helpers have near zero rates as you mentioned (I actually have the hypercoils with my Koni / GC setup) while a tender spring has a real rate. Tenders can be be used to develop dual (or triple) rate systems as the tender bottoms out.

 

You are right re. the plot, the lines should be parallel. But the point still holds. I guess it's hard to convey this in words but don't think of the car when its stationary. Think of what happens when the wheel drops into a pothole. For a moment there there is almost no load, then when the wheel hits the ground some of the load is taken up by the preload, so the spring moves less. Less movement, harsher feeling. I experimented with this and there is no doubt, more preload is harsher.

Regarding the helper/tender terminology: it varies, I've seen both names used. I meant the "zero rate" ones.

 

I just gave H&R a call to ask about the ITR kit (part number 29494-1), and was told the working spring rates are 350 lbs/in front and 240 lbs/in rear. I'm just going to go with these since it sounds like the best solution for me. I did some more reading up on the Bilstein B8s and it definitely sounds like it would be overdamped for the H-Tech or even a similar Prokit spring, like you guys have mentioned here.

I'll probably order these over the next few weeks. The cheapest I've found is THMotorsports at $912 shipped. I'll message or call the rep here and see if they'll do a HT discount on top of that. Have you been able to find it cheaper elsewhere?

 

Thmotorsports is likely the cheapest you'll find them. Give them a call. They can usually whack off a few bucks. I've bought like 4 or 5+ coilover systems through them in the past year or so.

Are you buying ITR control arms? In the price that you're looking at...I would not overlook the Tein Street Flex. I usually don't go for feature based systems over quality based systems. But the SF is really really well built and well damped. I really don't think you're giving up much (if any) quality...but you are getting quite a few useful features.

Take a look at tein's website and check them out. Vendor sites don't list all the cool manufacturing aspects of the system. If the Flex-A is available...check that out also. It has hydraulic bump stoppers, etc.

 

I ended up calling them earlier this afternoon also. They at least gave both of us the same numbers. I think I'm leaning the same direction and will probably be picking these up in the next week or so. Need to get the ITR style arms but they are about $130 brand new for both.

Springrates.com (sounds kind of sketchy, but seems to check out okay) has them for $875 shipped. I was able to find some coupon codes for THMotorsports online which looked like they were going to work and would bring it down a bit lower than that. Those are the two best prices I've been able to find.

I don't think the Flex A / Z have been released yet for DC / EG stuff. When I emailed them a few weeks back they mentioned they would not be released until the current Street Flex setups are all sold. The Street Flex setups look like they're getting clearanced out a few places at just over $900 though, so they come in right around the same price as the H&Rs.

 

Yup I'll be buying ITR lower rear arms. The Street Flex are a really tempting option for the same price but I think they might be overkill for me. I'm sure they'd be killer in the canyons, but sounds like they'd be a bit harsh even at their softest settings for a majority of my city/freeway driving.

I haven't had a car with a modded suspension in 10+ years, so I'm not exactly sure what would be tolerable or not for me at this point tbh. My last modded car was a 95 Civic Si with GC/Koni. The rates were 400 front and 350 rear, and I never had any complaints but like I said that was 10+ years ago.

Appreciate the suggestions again. You're making this harder than I thought hah!


Glad to hear we got quoted the same numbers! If you get the H&Rs in before I do, please update this thread. Would love to hear what you think of them.

 

If you thought Koni/GC 400/350 was comfortable, then the Teins will be like riding on a cloud lol.

The street flex isn't "agressive". But if you want something more comfortable, then the street ADVANCE is a good option.

FWIW, I've had Tein SA's on my TSX for 50k miles. It is a REALLY nice comfort based kit. About $600, and exactly the features you need on the street. Delrin thrust washer underneath the spring and slippery coating on the threads that makes it super easy to adjust, really nice damper settings (keep it above -8 clicks. The soft settings are under damped and kinda useless). At full soft, they are so soft that its comical. I can get the car to float around like an old cadillac.

I have them at -4F and -7R clicks from stiff now...and its perfect. Car is firmly damped but super comfy. It 100% for sure rides wayyy better than stock. The powder coat is extremely tough. They don't control the body as nicely as KW's do...but they are more forgiving on medium speed bumps.

You'll like the damper adjustment. Its nice to tweak from time to time. The price is like $80 more than the non adjustable street basis version. No idea why you wouldn't take the adjustability at that point.

They're made in Japan. Designed in the US and Japan with REAL R&D.

Again...not dumping on the H&R. I'm sure its a great system. But Tein has really been on it with their street lineup.

Its worth looking at the Teins more closely for sure.

 

The H&R's big advantage is the monotube dampers. I'd love for someone to buy some and do a proper review.

 

Well, just pulled the trigger on these. Ordered the ITR kit (29494-1) and also ordered new OEM ITR rear lower arms (which are the same price or cheaper than the used ones on eBay) as well as the ITR upper shock mount bushings while I was there.

Will take pictures and update the thread once everything is installed.

 

Lovely! Please do indeed follow up, the feedback will be very valuable. It'd be great if you could weigh the dampers, I'm curious about the difference between these and aluminum body dampers like Ohlins and such.