Hello Everyone!

First I will list my set up, charts, then my Q's at the bottom.

-H23aV BT 11.3:1/royal purple
-T2W4 Euro-R transmission/Tarco RTF
-PO6 with Neptune RTP datalogger
-base cams
-Fresh rebuilt head/oem valves, valve job.
-BC springs and retainers
-Euro-R intake
-RDX injectors 410cc @ 38psi
-S2 68mm TB
-Injen true CAI with Hydroshield prefilter
-8lbs. Fidanza flywheel
-Kaizenspeed BS delete kit
-PLM header
-3" full custom header back exhaust with 2.5" choke points
-A bit of other small things












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So here are my Q's;
-I had for sure thought I would be closer to 200whp with everything ive done. I know a few of the parts I got where meant for mid range and would take from the top end. My tuner hasnt done many H series, so Im wondering if im making appropriate power in the places I should for my set up?

-My intake air temp sensor decided it wasnt going to work and not throw a cell. So he tuned with a bad IAT sensor, could that effect it? I was told as far as for tuning it to drive, it shouldnt be a big issue.

-The head has regrettably been milled .020", but i have AEM true-times. They are 0'd out, but were never played with on the dyno. Could that effect my power?

-It was wet like normal in the NW. I have a prefilter hydroshield to keep splashes off the filter. I dont believe it would have gotten saturated through it. But maybe a wet air filter causing the top end issue?

-The tuner told me the engine wants to make more power, but something is not letting it up top. He said possibly the manifold, which I know doesnt like high rpms. But Im not making anything over 6k rpm, shouldnt the euro-r make power past 6k?

-I was told I was making decent torque, which I know keeping the torque and hp numbers close is good. Im making about same trq at wheels as stock brake ftlbs. , but Hp wise still 20hp less then bhp stock. I was wondering if the gear you use on the dyno effects the #'s? Ive seen a few dyno vids where they use 4th gear. A shorter geared trans can translate the power more efficiently correct? Wouldnt that apply to gears as well?

-Any suggestions on how I can increase HP without loosing torque? Or at least what may be causing my top end to fall on its face?

-It was a mustang dyno, dont different dyno read different results?
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Anyhow Thanks in advance for all comments/help/advice!

here are a few pics of my car and a link to my build thread

https://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude...dates-3201446/

 

Something doesn't seem right. I've never seen a power band act like that. Especially the torque. Stock cams? A bad IAT can definitely ruin a tune and how the car runs. It will add or take away a bunch of fuel depending on what way it goes. It almost like timing and fuel was fine up til 6k, then it just cuts off. Who tuned the car?

 

Ya its the base stock H cams. I had it tuned at Track Forged Inc. in Portland Or. Tuners name was John, cant recall last name. They do have a few hondas that come through there. Many s2k's and civics, not many H's at all.

 

I am going to echo the manifold holding it back. Specifically since you have such volume with the 95 mm stroke, compared to the engine that used that manifold.

When I was building my setup, I talked to the guys making big power on the larger H setups, and they said go for big volume in the intake manifold, and a big throttle opening to feed it.

Without dyno proof, I can only go by what I saw when tuning the car. For starters, when I added cams, I didn't have huge changes overall, just on start-up and idle tuning. I was able to tune the car fine on the stock jdm injectors at that point as well.

When I did the next step, I kept the engine the same internally, but switched the header, and switched from a stock intake and tb, to a ported out intake and matched 76 mm tb. On this setup, I was flowing so much more air, that I was running out of injector on the low lobe, not even in Vtec. Switching up to larger injectors and I was good to go for fuel, but I saw the huge change in what the engine was able to take in once it was there.

This also explained why I did not see much change with the cams, the engine had already reached what it could reasonably pull through the restrictive intake.

 

Intake is holding you back. I would look for a larger one especially since you have the open air available.

Intake I am not sure is holding you back compared to what you have setup.

Intake sensor going bad for sure would mess up a lot of things especially top end.

What fuel was used?(can hold you back)

 

Head milled .020" retarded your camshaft timing enough that I bet 0 and 0 isn't probably the ideal spot.
What diameter is your intake tube?
Some intake length and diameter tuning might reveal a few ponies as well.

 

From what I've read here on HT, RDX injectors like higher fuel pressures. Of your at 38 psi, they probably are not spraying the optimal pattern.

 

Agreed, mine liked 55-60psi when I was running them.

 

Looks like everyone has already pointed out the problems lol. Even more than the intake manifold though, I'd say that throttle body and intake pipe with prefilter is holding you back more. A stock h22 or h23 will like a 75mm TB.

 

air intake pipe gets my vote!

 

Mustang dyno aka the heart breaker

Pretty good suggestions from everybody already

 

well on a mild built stock ITR i made about 7 more hp and same tq on the same dyno, on a dynapack dyno it read 203 hp. so I think your setup like others have mentioned has some things that should be adressed but i think your pretty close to what it should make.

The mustang dyno reads low.

If the bore of the intake manifold is smaller than the 68mm tb your using and not port matched you will have potential power loss from the lip of the manifold causing air flow to be disrupted, always a good thing to check the bore and port match it to the bigger aftermarket tb.

I sugest replacing the parts mentioned for a better unit and retune with a new sensor. A 3'' cai will do wonders.

Have the tuner play with your cam timing and adjust the gears to see if it frees up some hp.

 

Also, are those numbers corrected? If it truly was wet and humid out the numbers should correct up to SAE. There is significantly less horsepower in really humid air.

Still not sure what that dip is though, and it looks pretty extreme. Can you post a matching fuel table?

 

Agree that AFR dip looks weird. Other than that looks like your HP and torque numbers are in the ballpark. Don't sweat hitting the 200 mark. Mustang dynos typically read lower than Dynojets.

 

Same here. Would be curious to see how it drives after swapping in a 3" short ram.

 

You need to take it to James at Speedfactory in Tacoma, WA.... He should have all my files ready to go for the 3 or 4 H23Vtec Blue Top Motors he has tuned of mine. They all averaged 210-218 whp with 175 trq. The dyno graphs tell me may want to try another dyno...

H23V Blue Top motors there were all cookie cutter Stock Internals, Euro R manifold and 68mm PP Throttle Body with 3" Short Ram Air intakes and ESP 4-2-1 Header and atleast a 3" Thermal R&D exhaust system 2 were Crx's and one was DC2 with power steering. That one made 210 whp and 174 trq same mods but Type S/Euro R cams.

I would first do a compression test and see what each cylinder is...

I do not believe your intake manifold is holding you back it is an effiecient manifold and probably good for semi builds 240 whp and under...

My first thoughts is slam head against table!!!! Why you shave 20K off the head with OEM gasket thickness? Yes raise compression... but also brings your P2V clearance closer...

H23V Blue Top from what I think uses valve reliefs much of the H23A1 which isn't a lot I do not believe compared to the H22...
I think the H23V Blue Top compression height is same as the H23A1 which is 30.5mm and the H22 is 31mm.

COMPRESSION CHECK TIME!

Below are all H23V Blue Tops that I mentioned

The H23V Blue Top motors like vtec engaged little lower then H22... around 4400-4600 is the sweet spot.

You sure Vtec is fully working?

I have been playing with nothing but H23V Blue Top motors since 2005
We wont even get into How Many H23V Blue Top motors I have Fully Built for turbo

 

If you are neptune I may even have a Crome chip of 2 tunes to let you try out. Not really looking to get rid of...

 

Hey sorry for the delayed response! Been busy, but I appreciate all the help!

I will try to answer all the questions, sorry if I miss one.

Ive seen several builds with a euro-r making 200whp though.

Yeah i wish I had another sensor on hand, but it had to be dyno'd that day...

Ive been running Chevron/76 supreme only, which is only 92 where i live.

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I do have adjustable gears, but tuner didnt play with so Im zero'd out still. From my understanding every .012" milled you need to advance approx 1 degree. I had cams set at 1-1/2 degree advanced and it ran fine. But when I called the shop before tune session they said its best to start at 0 and work from there. But like I said they never touched them.

The Injen is 2-3/4" in diameter i believe, injen only made 1 size single piece cai for 4th gen ludes. I just got the polished version.

Yes thats what I gathered as well about RDX. Thats why I bought a Areomotive FPR so I can up the psi. I had set at 38psi so it would work on a stock map for the break in period. I told the tuner the injectors could be turned up but they never played with fuel psi. Just tuned as is.

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From everything Ive read prefilters shouldnt rob power. But I live in the NW, WA state to be exact. We have been getting inches a rain a day for the last month or so. My filter bottom is 8" off the ground, i still have the fender liner, but Im still worried about hydrolock. Maybe I should have taken off before dyno, but i had to drive there in the rain. I didnt want a wet filter, which would have robbed more power then the prefilter if they do.

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Well the Euro-R did have a very slight lip on inside of the 68mm TB. What I did was take a sharpie and traced around the inside of TB while mounted on mani. Then used a dremel and took that lip off where the sharpie line was and smoothed out. More or less a DIY TB port match.

I believe the cai intake i have now is 2-3/4", but I differently will need a retune!

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Honestly I dont know if numbers are corrected... It was raining, cold, wet and I could see my breath while car was on dyno. Made it seem smokey looking out the exhaust lol...

Yes I can post fuel tables, both high and low cam. Just not tell later tonight, Im unable to take the pics at this exact moment.

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I want to do a compression test here soon, motor sounds good, not like it has a bent valve or anything. Runs and pulls extremely hard to about 7k according to by butt-dyno lol.. H series with base cams should be able to be milled .040" of a inch before you run into p2v issues. Granted the BT pistons valve recesses are .10" shallower then stock base pistons. I should be no more then a base H with .030", which is fairly common without issue with stock cam gears.

I do have adjustable gears, but tuner didnt play with so Im zero'd out still. From my understanding every .012" milled you need to advance approx 1 degree. I had cams set at 1-1/2 degree advanced and it ran fine. But when I called the shop before tune session they said its best to start at 0 and work from there. But like I said they never touched them.

I was talked out of the milling a little too late... This is my first "build" on my own over the last 3 years its come together. 2 years ago when I had head work done, I was a younger dumber version of my self today LOL.. I see the ways of my error and am trying to work around it. I have thought of going thicker HG, but i just got the car together. Id like to make it work with cam gears, at least for the short term if possible.

yes vtec engages lol, he has set at 4,5k. Sounds good too

I really do want to take it to SpeedFactory. Now that its running, and all licenced I can drive up to Tacoma. Only about a 2 hour drive or so from the Vancouver/Portland area. Probably will have to be in the spring, hopefully before race season starts!...

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Thanks again to everyone! There is a ton of knowledgeable people on here trying to help, I definitely appreciate it all!

I will post up both fuel maps lower and high cams later tonight. I also will upload a couple videos of the dyno run later as well.

 

No offense, but you need to get a better tuner. There isn't a tuner I trust that would tune a car w/ a bad sensor, and wouldn't bother playing with the fuel pressure or cams if it was mentioned to them. Just sounds like laziness IMO.

James @ speedfactory will not tune Neptune, at least last time I checked because I considered having him do my car. $500 minimum for a neptune tune I think I was told. Awesome tuner, but I wasn't willing to make the longer drive and pay the extra cash. Their dyno reads right at "industry standards" if I'm not mistaken.
Rich @ RichTuned Motorsports did my tune on neptune (although he's not a fan) and did a killer job on it. He's $300 flat rate for NA tunes unless you're running a stand-alone ECU. His dyno DOES read low, about 10-15% compared to speedfactory and other local dynojets, but IMO dyno dynamics are one of the best dynos on the market.

 

Neptune and Crome is same... James tuned all my cars with Crome. James is the best. Rich would be your 2nd best alternative. Cheaper and Quicker on appointments. Ive dealt with james for about a decade now.

I hear what your saying on the setup. It being milled is too close. Would atleast probably go with a 40k thick headgasket now. Stock cams. I would say there is no benefit then straight up OEM...

As far as what dyno to use... on All Motor setups I would use James Dynapack/Hub dyno over a dynojet. I believe it is better dyno for the fine tuning aspect.

H23V blue top likes a bit more timing then H22's. Your first thing would be to do a Compression Check... I hope nothing bad has happened. Car will still run decent if there is a minut bend in the valves.

 

Interesting. I was told Neptune is somewhat similar to crome, but Crome is still much easier and quicker to tune...I was told it's more like Hondata in that aspect, which James tunes. I had him tune my cars on crome in the past, never had 1 issue. He is one of the Elite tuners in the country and on the west coast. If I could get him on board for neptune I would throw mine on his hub machine in a heart beat.

 

I called in the past and asked Speedfactory if they tuned Neptune and I was told yes. This was a year ago or so, so who knows now. Its worth a call, the second tune shop I had in mind is Kaizenspeed. Im sticking with Neptune, and from what Ive been told its near the same thing as Hondata. Just with different features.

Wouldnt a retune be cheaper then a from scratch tune?

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Here is the high cam fuel and ignition maps as requested, sorry for delay. Between work and seeing the new Star Wars, my last few nights been pretty busy!

 

Bad IAT needed to be replaced dyno. IMO that tuner owes you a few more pulls at no expense, the AFR lines (to me at least) are a little too all over the place, no telling if that is the tuner or the IAT.
I have heard mustang dynoes so read low, but looking at other dyno charts from that dyno should give you an idea of that.
I have seen setups similar to yours dyno at 210+ here in Houston...different dyno though, I dont know of any import shops that use a Mustang dyno here, and only one that uses dynojet. Most everyone ends up with a load producing dyno, like a DYnoCom...

 

just goes to show you why trackforged is losing customers.... get a hold of vit at vit tuning. he will get a ton more power out of that thing for you

 

This is a H22, H2b, 11.5-1 comp. Skunk2 st2 cams, modded stock intake manifold, stock t/b, stock everything else. We tuned on Neptune. When I grab my laptop, I'll take a look at the timing we were running to see what this setup needed vs. your setup.