hey, this is my first post on hondatech! horay!

so i'm debating whether to buy a new mazdaspeed protege, or find a Used ITR. i dont particularly care about comfort, looks, gizmos. just about getting faster laptimes then i do in my current car.

so lets hear some opinions if you guys have em. obviously no-ones driven an MSP, but how do the modded protege coupes fare at the autox in your areas?

any thoughts would be awesome.

 

Well, I would get an MP3 and turbocharge it, instead of buying the MS Protege. Car and Driver had an article on the MS Protege, and from what I can gather, didn't care for the suspension settings too much. With the MP3, you get a more compliant ride, but with the same tenacious grip (70 mph slalom) and room for an aftermarket turbo which will put ouf considerably more power than the MS Protege. Remember that the MS's turbo and engine management have been designed to discourage aftermarket modification.

I'm a bit partial to Mazda, having just purchased a Protege 5.

Since this is afterall a Honda forum, I'm sure you'll get good on input on running a Type R setup.

Will you be using this car as open track only, auto-x, wheel to wheel racing, or a daily driver with some sporting tendecies?

 

One of the mags, I think SCC, said that the Mazdaspeed is the new king of the hill for FWD cars. I'll believe it when I see the comparison tests. They said the same thing about the Sentra SE-R Spec V before it was officially available to the public...and now we know there is no real comparison. The Mazdaspeed looks like a nice car, but I still think the Type R will be better for hardcore racers.

 

Depends on what you want to use it for. There is something to be said for a good performing stock car... (comparing a regular protege (modified) to a Mazdaspeed).

I see the problem as this: With a reported 2000 being sold, you fall into the typical car company trap. If you really want a Mazdaspeed Protege, you probably should have already put a deposit down on one... and you'll be lucky to get one without paying a premium. On top of that, you will likely get it without ever having driven one before.

 

What kind of power are the WC Protege's making?

Those are some nice looking race cars.

 

What about the new Neon SRT-4?

Dan

 

i was afriad of that too, so i have a deposit down (refundable) so when the cars come in, i'm #3 on the list... and everyone at my dealer knows theres no way that i'm going to buy one without driving it first, and everyone there seemed cool about it... now lets just see what happens when they start bringing them off the trucks

i'm mostly going to be Autox this car, there arent any road corses around (if there were i'd be building a project 951 )... from everything i've seen everyone has liked the MSP over the mp3 as far as the suspension setup, it out slolomed the mp3 (72mph iirc), they were just complaining about a harsher ride.

i would think about the srt-4, but i dont think it's going to hold up as well with equal length halfshafts insted of a real LSD, but when they come i will definately go drive one and find out.

i seem to be having a harder time finding an ITR then an MSP. the MSP's seem relatively easy to come by, i haven't found a single ITR yet. maybe i'm just looking in the wrong places

 

Too much power, not enough grip. Careful throttle modulation will be key but... I don't think too many people would mind adding a little extra $$$ to their bill at the dealership if Dodge had decided to have an LSD for it available as a factory option.

 

I'm pretty sure I saw the "Mazdaspeed" turbo at the DC Touring car race, it was in Roger Foo's paddock area.
The Turbo looked a little smallish, but at least it would seem to spool up relatively quickly at the expense of top end.

An ITR shouldn't be that hard to find, and at this point might even be considered a bit of a investment.
Check cars.com and put ITR or Type R in the advanced inquiry section.
You'll probably need to drive out of state a bit. Ed

 

The MSP chassis sounds fantstic as does it's stock supsension. However, I think I would feel like a sucker buying a car with a turbo charged 2.0L engine that still falls ~20 hp short of the b18c5. I honestly think I would wait for something better. I can't believe that Toyota doesn't have something up it's sleeve to compete with these cars. Perhaps the next Sentra will better live up to the expectations the current car had.

Also, I don't think turbo is the best choice for a race car. I'd love to own a turbo-charged daily driver, but for the track, N/A is the way to go for rule-compliance and reliability reasons.

 

>>What about the new Neon SRT-4?<<

That's what I'm wondering too. For autocross, it was just placed in D stock with the ITR. For all that I really can't stand Neons for all sorts of reasons, they do *handle*. And the ACR's come pretty well setup from the factory. Will the SRT-4 have the same suspension setup as the ACR? Combined with the 0-60 figures they're giving on it, I think it might be the car to unseat the ITR. 5.7 seconds I heard, and all for $19K. Depends on who ends up buying one though.

The Speed WC guys are having good luck with the Proteges, but that's mainly due to the ruleset (rules = politics). As for Proteges I've seen at autocrosses, none of them have been even slightly impressive. They're heavy, underpowered, and undersprung. The turbo might give them some grunt, but they'll need a lot more than that to come close to the ITR (IMO). The only thing I can see in the Protege's favor is that sweet little ball bearing T25. That thing must spool unbelievably fast. Hopefully Mazda will end up making a bunch of them so I can find a wrecked one and replace the DSM T25 on my Civic someday...

 

FWIW -- I saw one of the "prototype" Neon SRT's in Youngstown OH a couple weeks ago.
It had manufacturer's plates, and what lookes like a supplementary engine computer/sensor (Horiba?) system on the dash in front of the driver.

Sounded WICKED!
NA cars be afraid, be very afraid! hehehe ....

 

I can.

Toyota's answer to the tuner crowd = the Celica GT (no S) with the "Action Package."

 

hahah. "Looks Fast". Am i wrong, or does the new MazdaSpeed Protege not use the same suspension set up as the MP3?

 

the mazdaspeed protege has a similar suspension....but I believe it's actually slightly stiffer....and it's got the oh so important LSD! even if the HP falls short of an ITR.....it's got grunt thanks to it's smallish turbo.....but alas, I don't feel like bending over and clenching my teeth at the local mazda dealer

 

I actually hate to say this.. but what about the SVT Focus. High revving 4-cyl, 6 speed transmission and an LSD. Could be good.

 

unfortunately the the SVT Focus doesn't have an LSD....I wish it did tho

 

Really! I thought it did. What the hell are these people thinking? If you're going to build a car the is less comfortable (stiffer springs, maybe less options to save weight) so that people buy it for it's performance characteristics, you have to make the thing perform! What a bunch of @^$@@.....

That was directed at Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, and the current NA honda line-up.

 

the WC proteges have more power than the WC ITR's, its all about restrictions. they go that because the ITR is better in just about every other catagory so they let the proteges have more power...... now the bimmers on the other hand are pretty nice

 

I thought the SVT Focus had a Quaiffe(never been able to spell that correctly) LSD?


<edit> Though of getting a RWD car? I know they're tough to find, but damn RWD makes so much more sense to the engineer(and driver) in me than FWD. Good cars though, I was considering a MS Protege - but instead went German. </edit>


[Modified by Def, 12:25 PM 11/3/2002]

 

You know what I just thought of, the upcoming Pontiac Solstice. The Dodge Razor, if you can get past your car being named after a cheap stupid scooter, should be very cool as well; much better than any Neon.

Edit : Almost forgot, the Mini Cooper S!


[Modified by Vantage, 12:30 PM 11/3/2002]

 

they actually scrapped the Razor project, or i would have been the first person on the wiating list, i would have loved that car (assuming my lerpy 6'4 frame would have fit, that's about all that's keeping me from buying a miata. haha)

i'm not a big fan of Mini styling, i just cant get around it. and i think if i hopped out of a mini people would be looking to try and find the other 20 clowns who are packed in there

i thought and thought and thought about RWD, but i dont have a ton of options out there (new, or close to it)... i've admittedly never driven an e36 m3, and would probably like it... but RWD would be a bit tricky in utah winters.

winters are the other reason i haven't built a project 951, or 240sx. I also dont have a ton of money to fix any problems that i might have, or to mod. i can finance an ITR/MSP or what ever and have it paid off in less then a year (i had my VW loan of 9g's paid off in a year), but i cant finance mods without running the risk of credit problems. know what i mean? that's why i would rather build a really fun daily driver.


[Modified by nmap, 8:47 PM 11/3/2002]

 

E36 M3's are a blast. But if you are looking for a no comfort, race car feel it's not going to give it to you(which is what I was looking for with a daily driver). That said, the car just talks to you through the steering wheel. Can't ever see an Integra doing that to you(unless it's the snap of torque steer ). It's got pretty good traction control and a clutch-type LSD, so with some decent winter tires on the thing I'd imagine you could get around pretty well with a skilled right foot.

I really looked at a 240SX, but I could not fit in one to save my life(6'3" here). don't even get me started with a helmet! Plus the truck engine really turned me off to the car. Felt like the car wasn't going anywhere after 5k RPM. I'd imagine if you put the RIGHT engine in this car(SR20DET), it'd really rock. Until you hit your head on the roof after running over a bump.

If winters are a problem, what about getting a crap $1k late 80's Civic and driving the **** out of it in crap weather, and then have a car that drives the correct wheels for when you want to get down and dirty?

 

thought about the beater w/ fun car too, but I just dont have anywhere to put a second car. garage is full, and theres no room on the street...

unlessss... can anyone say back yard! YEEEE HA!

haha. and how can you have torque steer when you've only got like 140ftlbs? i have a modded 1.8t jetta right now... now that's torque steer!


[Modified by nmap, 9:06 PM 11/3/2002]

 

I like the MazdaSpeed Protege a lot. Probably would like it better in another color, but oh well. I would take it any day over the turbo Neon though. But it all depends on what you want. If you are strictly about autox and/or track lap times, get a used ITR. Since the WRX still didn't become such a great big threat to the ITR dominance in DS at national level autox, I don't see how the Mazdaspeed with 2WD and less power can be any kind of an equal match for the ITR in DS (if that's the MSP's class). But if you need 4 doors in a great handling/performing car, you can't go wrong with the turbo Protege.

Go test drive both cars if you are seriously considering both.


[Modified by Hracer, 4:22 PM 11/3/2002]