Hey all, I picked up a 99 5speed AWD CRV with a blown engine.

Rather than dropping another B20 and keeping it stock I've decided to turbo it. This will be my girlfriend's dd so I'd like to have usable torque around 3000 rpms and have a turbo capable of around 260ish whp if I decide to turn up the boost while I'm driving. More importantly it needs to have a linear or smooth power curve so it's something she would feel comfortable driving. I'm planning on replacing the engine with a stock b18a/b with arp head studs. I'd love to have the additional torque of the B20 but I'm weary about the sleeves cracking. Been there, done that.

I want to retain A/C and Power Steering so any suggestions on a decent manifold is also appreciated.

 

The only LS's I have seen make usable torque (AKA boost) anywhere close to 3000rpms were the ones running Evo turbos with custom manifolds.

 

This is the guy I was thinking of.

https://honda-tech.com/drag-racing-3...hatch-3051460/

 

I tuned with Dave and he told he about this car. I'd love to see a dyno of the power curve. Thanks for the link. Looks like a simple yet practical setup...

 

For such low horsepower just get a cast manifold setup GT2860RS (or 71) and call it a day (assumes lack of proper shut downs will be imminent). If you want more then there many turbos to choose from. Unless you can find someone that has previously made a down pipe to clear the transfer case this will need to be modified to work. The rest of it is no different than any other chassis like a '96 - '00 Civic. Some trimming will be in order and probably a slim fan. Some people have to install a half radiator as well depending on the set up.

 

Like OneBad said, Disco Potato and call it a day. Also, keep an eye on your rear differential - I don't know much of anything about CRVs, but I have heard that their rear differentials like to **** on you with any kind of added power.

 

I think the same gors for the viscous coupler when you start feeding too much power into them

 

Just get a low compression jdm b20 they are dirt cheap ($400 or less), t3/t4 turbo of your choice ($750)...keep it around 300 whp and enjoy.

 

LoL... guys... It isn't the rear end as much as it is the rear axles. Stay away from hard launches and you will be perfectly fine up to around 450whp without issues. Also, a CR-V doesn't have a viscous coupler. That is an upgrade we do... the viscous couple takes the place of the dual pump in the rear differential. The weakest link is the transfer case and rear axles without a doubt in stock form.

 

Good to know, the car won't be seeing any hard launches. Fun in the snow, most definitely. Do you still have your turbo crv? If so did you retain your a/c? Just trying to get some ideas for different manifolds and how to route the piping.

 

Unfortunately yes, I do still have my POS (I keep my Honda only car list updated below in sig). I went built N/A while I am for no good reason waiting to put my sleeved block together. I am now very bored with 220 - 230 whp and only took 1k miles to get that way haha. Probably going to throw the turbo kit back on for winter though since I am so bored...

My set up is a unique sidewinder (not HyTech style but that is next ) and would require you to build your own manifold and LOONG down pipe. I have cold A/C, P/S, and a full width (stock) radiator. Stock A/C fan with slim pull radiator fan.

Any old A/C friendly manifold will work just fine. The only problem is having to most likely get a half width radiator; not much of a problem other than mounting it and added cost. The down pipe will need to be angled more than you think after the oil pan. If you want ease of modification find a down pipe that hugs the sump part (low part) of the oil pan.

On a side note - If you are worried about the rear diff change the fluid. Best thing you can do for them aside from shimming the relief spring to bump up the pressure clamping pressure. I also highly recommend installing a LSD. You will over work the AWD with one wheel up front and rear spinning. 3 wheels going is much better; then do the Phantom Grip style mod for a weak 4 wheel LOL!!!

 

I never knew the crv rear diff had a pump lol.

I also don't know of any off the shelf rear LSD for one either, I know people have installed front LSDs with some clever things to get a shelf b series LSD to fit two final ring gears.

I know our AWD element has a clutch type LSD from the factory... Not sure if both driveshafts spin the same way but if they do then it wouldn't be hard to find a complete rear diff/pumpkin and modify the rear subframe to fit it. Might take custom axles though.

You should be able to find a complete rear diff fairly cheap given the age of the element, might be worth it to buy a complete rear subframe and suspension. That way you have the axles, hubs, etc to measure against to see what will and won't bolt up to the Crv.

 

Yes sir, the rear diff fluid from Honda is even called "Dual Pump Fluid" LoL... It is basically just like a transmission with clutch packs in between the input pinion and feeds the open rear diff. You can do a completely custom Phantom Grip style "LSD" in the rear diff but it is soo small nothing off the shelf per say. This involves scratch made blocks with separator springs.

No off the shelf LSD for the front. No B-series differential either. The SBXM transmission is a Euro H-series but uses a B-series clutch, has a B-series bell housing, and bolts up to a B-series transmission mount. So you use a H / F series differential and modify it. I have done it for multiple members on here including myself twice, latest one being a couple months ago haha.

I know more than I care to know about the first gen (RD1) CR-Vs...

 

Leave it to Honda to make something work out of a bunch of parts they just had laying around. It's a complete clusterfuck, but it's a functional clusterfuck.

...Do people actually still use Phantom Grips?

 

I've seen people put standard b series LSDs in the trans. They machine some sort of spacer/adapter that supports 2 ring gears. I'll have to google to find the thread when I get home.

I know the element rear diff doesn't have a pump, it's just a standard pumpkin with a clutch type LSD. Honda said it was either a 1.5 or 2 way, can't remember which

 

NotARacist - I sure hope people don't still use Phantom Grips for their main diff or first choice. The rear diff Phantom Grip is basically your only choice given the design unfortunately. Work with what you have even if it isn't the best.


wantboost - I assure you that it's a H - series diff. B - series will not work. I have done multiple of these and originally thought a B - series would work like you. I can provide pictures if you prefer. If you want the write-up I can provide that too. A user by the name of draggbody is the one who did the write up with a handful of us contributing behind the scenes via PM, e-mail, and phone calls. I would share all the people's names of LSDs I have done for them but I refuse to do so without their permission.

There are only a couple companies that have even done it and Synchrotech won't. GearSpeed pretended for a while, but they didn't understand the process. Aquifina is one that has done them and EpicTuning was going to release a kit but it never took off just like GearSpeed.


The Element looks like it has a TCD unit to me...

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...ENTIAL+-+MOUNT

 

Err yea h series.. Derp, I knew it was some Honda motor lol.

I clearly never noticed the front of the case looked too round. Plus the tech at Honda that did work on the diff insisted it didn't have a pump. Clearly he was an idiot.

Now I know why Honda is so insistent about changing the rear diff fluid and adding the friction modifier.

I wonder if you can control lock up by rearranging or adding/removing clutch plates like a typical clutch setup. Other than that the only option would be to shim the internal bypass but it wouldn't be easy since you'd have to pull the whole diff apart... Not to mention it would be trial and error with shim thickness and shim count to get the pressure right.

So basically lots of disassembly lol.

It's weird because the element is full time awd like the crv. I'm wondering if the clutch system is also used for disengagement of the rear diff under certain conditions/speeds. Mainly for fuel economy.

I can see where in low traction situations where the clutches would slowly start to apply more torque to the rear.

I've noticed under hard acceleration from a stop that the front will wheelspin slightly before it seems like the rear diff engagement increases. Noticed it also when we had that big snow/ice storm earlier this year. I wonder if Honda has the rear diff disengage under acceleration to prevent damaging the unit?

Just seems weird to not only have an open diff back there but describe it as full time awd when clearly it isn't. That pump and clutch pack system wouldn't be needed if that were the case.

Is the system ecu controlled or solely based on wheel speed/torque levels? where the pump is being driven 100% of the time where the engagement level is dictated by rear wheel speed, driveshaft rpm and/or front and rear wheel speed differential, as well as torque applied to the input shaft of the diff.

This system sounds like an epic clusterfuck. If you could get some sort of real LSD in the rear then i could see the system being helpful. Of course then it would make more sense to delete the pump/clutch assembly and find some way to feed the rear diff 100% of the time.

As long as the same wheel and tire size is used front and rear I don't see a full time 50/50 torque split causing problems

 

We built a turbo CR-V a few years back using a 5857, and a stock sleeve LS. At a week of 400+hp, it killed all function of the rear end.

It WAS a lot of fun, though!

 

D-Rob - I have seen the videos, that rear end was in need of service just by hearing it. I have had 450 whp through it with only fresh fluid and relief spring shimming as well as verification of clutch pack service limits. draggbody also had 400 whp and did the mod as well without issues. Hard launches will kill any stock AWD system in short time.

wantboost - IIRC the ratios are slightly different front to back. People have pinned the clutch pack in both CR-V and Wagovan setups. The most common upgrade, as stated before, is to swap in a viscous coupler of some sort. I have seen from the typical RT4WD Civic to Lexus parts LoL. draggbody actually made an air-locker for the CR-V rear diff. He had it on a switch but I personally would have taken the time to make it work off the EMS.

What you are experiencing with the delayed rear diff engagement is due to the dual pump design. They unfortunately all do that. It is more of a shock to the rear end than anything. Shimming the pump spring will actually help with a more positive engagement. Honda never called it AWD but rather Real Time 4 Wheel Drive for a reason - the delayed timing LMFAO. Pure marketing BS, because Delayed 4 Wheel Drive doesn't have the same ring to it...

The dual pump only activates when a certain percentage (IIRC 5 - 7% or something like that) of input and output speed of the TCD unit. They are rather easy to remove and shim. Most people put around 1/4" - 3/8" of shim in there from what I have seen.

 

Interesting...i'd like to see some pics of your setup. I'd prefer to use a cast turbo manifold due to costs and may have more options to keep AC that way.

I haven't had time to research any decent ones for the b series that retain AC.

Been considering which turbo I'll be using. We pulled the original b20 from the CRV. No evidence of damage until we removed the ac compressor and noticed the hole in block. Fortunately the head is good and clean at that, no bent valves. Not a big deal but some additional savings even though they're a dime a dozen.

I'm set on running a b18a bottom end. Mainly because I already have a bottom end in good shape that I will rebuild with new rings, new oem bearings, etc. I also haven't had much luck with b20 sleeves in the past and have seen others with issues cracking them. I would think the sleeves most likely see the most stress at low rpm with higher load (drivetrain) and higher torque (turbo) scenarios which the new engine will be enduring. I'm planning to keep the oem cast pistons and stock rods since this is a mild build.

To make up for the lack of displacement and the low rpm, low end torque I'm thinking about using a gt28rs turbo. I haven't seen any dyno graphs on a stock b18a/b but on the dynos I've seen it puts down usable torque down low with a fat midrange. Might spool a little quick for the girlfriend but I can always turn the boost down for her

Here's a nice dyno plot I pulled up on a stock gsr engine for reference... starting 125 wtq at 2250 rpms. A lot of torque down low with a linear power curve:

http://www.evans-tuning.com/dynos/wp...rtisHandy1.jpg



**as far as the phatom grip lsd...Are you referring to using that as the front lsd?










Since it follows the H series trans does it have longer gear ratios than the majority of the b series transmissions?

Regarding the H/F differentials, are you interested in doing another one Sounds like a better option than the phantom grip...

I'm glad you know more than you care to know about the RD1. Thx for the advice



Fun, but not so reassuring...fingers crossed I get further than a week with the drivetrain on this setup

Good to know. Know of any writeups or links to shimming the rear? Air locker sounds bad ***...Hmm

 

Phantom Grip would definitely be for the rear. I would possibly be willing to do another LSD but I warn you machine shop rates have gone through the roof. When I started doing them for people it was about $200 and now the last one was around $450 !!! All the information you seek is spread out on this forum, you will have to sift through multiple threads. Please understand some of these are from a few years back and some knowledge has gotten more precise.

https://honda-tech.com/honda-element...nside-2991272/

https://honda-tech.com/forced-induct...-ic-c-2976240/

 

$450 to get a proper ATB diff installed into a housing where it wasn't made to go is still chump change, IMO. I wouldn't be caught dead with a Phantom Grip in the passenger seat, let alone anywhere actually in my drivetrain.

 

Thanks for providing the links...I've been limited with time lately but managed to briefly cliff note some of the info.

I found this video interesting...Would solely shimming the CRV's rear end aid with passing this uphill traction test? :

I jumped to conclusion of wanting to build an AWD Crv because it fell in my hands for a fair price and I have a bunch of parts to build an engine and turbo platform that will drop into it.

However, after some research it seems apparent that the CRV's awd platform is lackluster in comparison to something similar made by Subaru.

In similar used price ranges, an abstract comparable example could be the awd CRV vs. a Subaru Outback.

The outback and some other subies are plagued with engine problems (outback: headgaskets from what i looked into) yet has a better awd platform. Where as I know I can build a reliable, responsive and fun engine platform for the CRV but is it worth the time if it's awd system isn't worth the added weight bolted the vehicle?

Not trying to be a downer, keep in mind I've only owned mostly Hondas, but trying to be realistic if the CRV's awd setup is even worth the hype. I can build an engine to spec to last although I haven't spent much time modifying drivetrain components such as a rear end. My power goals are conservative, I mainly want torque, but I don't want to dick with modding an awd drivetrain if it won't perform much better than a Fwd CRV.

Main priorities of the build in this order are:
Practical, Quick (Not Fast, ie 14 sec qtr mile although it won't be a drag car), Enough Torque to carry it's weight around and plenty of cargo, and ability to perform and gain traction through treacherous road conditions (a lot of snow), and decent gas mileage (26 mpg+ average would be nice with a light foot)

Ideally a fun cross country road trip car that can go nearly anywhere and have more room and traction abilities than a 4 door turbo integra.

Again thanks for all of your advice thus far. Just trying to get an idea what to expect before I pull the trigger to build this or not.

 

If you are after the least amount of modification and a true AWD system look elsewhere than the CRV. It really is a junk system to the point of why they didn't label it AWD because it is not. A ton of upgrades are needed to make it usable as theory would indicate it is supposed to work. There are a handful of videos showing people with CRVs going uphill in snow and how the rear drive kicks in and is delayed, but it isn't as precise or predictable to get it to activate. Modification of the pump will help with this to a point. The air locker is the only true solution to the stock style pump. From there the viscous coupling is your next upgrade and preferably not one from a Honda.

I also think you have lofty MPG goals for this lead sled. It weighs quite a bit (around 3,400 lbs IIRC - have to look at scale slip) and only gets worse milage with bigger tires and stock height or lift. Too much frontal area on these things with a pretty high drag coefficient of almost 0.50 IIRC.

 

You need a forester lol.

I'm looking for one too, friend just bought one we both had the ideas of building a badass awd turbo wagon that could do mountain runs and still be able to take it camping, hiking, rafting, on road trips, wherever.

The crv definitely isn't the best platform for what you want to do. The element is slightly better, it's certainly more utilitarian. Hell I'm 6'3 and I can lay down in the back with the seats up without having to curl up in a ball.. add in the rear moonroof and the tents people make for the car combined with being able to rinse out the interior with a hose and it's a win win.