I have what I would consider a mild setup Im putting together and would like some feedback positive or nevative on a few cams that I have been contemplating for the setup.
B18c bottom end
Stock stroke, 82 mm bore 11.5:1-12:1 compression.
B16 head, very mild port work, stock valves, supertech valve train.
Victor x manifold, 70 mm tb.

Looking at one of the following choices.
GSC power N2
Brian Crower stage 3
Skunk 2 Pro 2.

Any info or feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

Personally, I would get with Derek from DDtech, his shelf lineup has some good options. I wouldnt look at crower, they get beat by almost everything that is comparable in size. I don't even know what a GSC Power N2 is lol and I've looked at alot of B series cams.

If I had to pick of the 3 Pro 2's would be my choice, although those are going to be a bit big for you motor IMO.

Look at jun 3 spec type cams. Buddy club 3's would work well too.

Edit: Just looked those cams up and educated myself some. They have decent specs, but who knows what kind of power they will make. You can be the guinea pig

 

Out of that list, Most definitely the PRO2s, with the GSC's strongly behind.

We've done a lot of testing vs those listed camshafts and have had great results across the board. PM me for some information that may help direct you in a better direction.

 

Too big of cams,
Too big of manifold.


PM Derek.

 

there IS such a thing as over-camming

 

Messaged you

 

from your list, definitely Pro2s and a different IM, Performer X instead.

I'd personally would use any of these cams, I've had and have made good power with them on very similar 81.5-82mm bore engines:

Skunk Pro2s
Blox Cs
Rocket Motorsports M22KE
Skunk Tuner 2s
Jun3s
Toda Cs

 

Pro 2s are MUCH larger than any other cam you have listed, I wouldn't put them in the same category. All the others go together, the Pro2 has WAY more lift and duration.

 

I am not sure about that claim. I've measured/degreed a lot of sets of Pro2s as well as some others, 256* duration at 12.7mm lift on the intake cam and 11.63mm with 266* duration exhaust of the Pro2s are comparable numbers to the others cams listed. Lift and duration numbers are only one part of the equation.

While the lift numbers are big on the Pro2 intake cam, the duration number is less than most if not all of the rest of the cams listed.

The exhaust cam has good sized duration numbers at 266* with smaller lift at only 11.63mm. So the duration number is similar in size or slightly more but it definitely has less lift than most of the others listed if not all.

Lift and duration numbers are only one part of the equation. Just curious on how you came to the conclusion of "Pro 2s are MUCH larger than any other cam you have listed?"

I'm not looking to hype anything up or pass any broscience tech here. This is all data that i've personally gathered with my own 2 hands, not over info posted by others on forums etc.

 

I think its a far overused term. I think there's a power band utilizing the cam, and then having to rev higher to achieve said power band.

Just food for through, I'd rather "grow into a cam" then have one that's too small and have to buy another one if the build does grow and go a different direction..



As far as PRO2's being bigger. I think they are. The ramps on the pro2's are fastest then any of the camshafts Tou, you listed. I've personally, taken that into account when developing my shelf profiles.

I now, FULLY, understand why faster opening ramps are needed, and WHY they don't produce the "wear" people think they do, when properly designed.

I'll use my camshafts, because I don't want to speak for other companies, but skunk2, was on to something when they first released the pro series camshafts and that's why, still, today, they are some of the best in the business, period.

Camshafts with faster opening ramps, reach peak lift faster, this gives a better, useable power band, throttle response is increased as well as torque coming on earlier, this puts the duration primarily on the closing side, where the piston really starts to draw on the ports. NOT to mention, this closes the valve easier then most, this helps with preventing bouncing the valve off the seat as well as valvetrain control at 9+K where harmonics are killer.


Specs, Camcards, etc.. Those are guidelines. When something as little as timing belt tension can effect something, this is why results and actual engine specs of camshaft vary a bit, not to mention machine tolerances. Degreeing your camshafts and knowing your clearances are very important and this is why, Tou proved it with his actual degreeing, where the lift is there on point, but the duration does vary.

 

Thanks Derek

 

I understand what you are saying Derek as far as your view I regards to ramp rates. I was looking for an explanation on why or what makes the Pro2s "bigger" is all. Even the intake cam of Tuner 2s degreed and measured out comes in at 262* duration with the same 12.7mm lift. So it has the same/similar lift and 6* more duration, it's actually bigger than the Pro2 VTEC lobe. The Tuner 2 exhaust cam is slightly less duration with more lift.

Just something for the members to think about instead of just passing off info that they read and have little understanding about.

 

I appreciate your enthusiasm for learning and teaching, and I respect your opinion of what you think you know, but the reality is that you are incorrect, and you are talking to people that know quite a bit more than you so I'd probably try to curb your insulting attitude. Maybe you should follow your own advice.

The REAL specs of Skunk2 Tuner2s taken at 1mm are as follows..

Int-266 dur. / 12.3mm lift
Exh-262 dur. / 11.8mm lift

So they are in fact, quite a bit milder than the Pro 2s which have almost half a mm more of lift. Not to mention Derek already explained how there is more to cams than just lift and duration. Ramp angles play a huge role, and you can have different shaped lobes that show the same lift and duration on paper but are quite a bit different in the way they open the valves.


Thanks for stimulating more intelligent conversation though Cupcake, questions are always welcomed in the AM forum!

 

Explain ramp angles

I hear that a lot here

 

You've must've missed this part in my original reply:

OR you must just are trying really hard to be credible and saying "there's more to cams than just lift and duration" a third time, after not only ME saying it from the start and Derek agreeing with it.

Since I'm "incorrect," and you must seem to be the person you're reffering to as knowing quite a bit "more", you should explain what you mean by highlighting "REAL" specs as in what? You personally measured? So the specs that you personally measured must be the only legit specs? You must degree your cams at 1 mm lift then huh?

I've agreed with Derek as far as "ramp angles" goes etc. I'm looking for YOUR knowledgeable explaination on HOW "pro2s" are bigger, try not to ask Derek for help this time. From your reply, a bigger cam to you means more lift? As you mentioned that the Pro2s have .5mm more vs the 12.3 on the Tuners right?

Maybe if you knew as much as you thought, you'd know what IM to use on your setup cupcake So like I said, stop passing off info you have little understanding about, post-count engine builders these days smh..

 

I would look into m22ke

Slowsleeper made 228whp with 81.5x87.2

 

You can argue all you want with nobody, I'm not going to indulge you. You were wrong about the Tuner2 specs, and you clearly have no concept of how cams work if you think a Pro2 is comparable to a Blox C or Jun3. I'm not going to sit here and explain it to you, the simple fact of the matter is that Pro2s are much larger than those other cams. I said it. Derek said it. Cam specs say it. But no, you want to type out some long response somehow justifying that you weren't wrong, and that you know what you're talking about. Fine. You can attack me all you want, the simple fact of the matter is that you couldn't even get the tuner2 specs right, so how can you possibly come in here slinging mud and insinuating that others don't know what they're talking about?



Rocket - as a cam MAKER, why don't YOU tell us about ramp angles instead of asking more cryptic questions?

 

ramp angles????

 

LOL at the "ramp angles" edit

 

You arent even supposed to be here,......brochatski.

 

How sure are you that YOUR specs are correct and mine are wrong? Have you personally measured both sets of cams yourself? You're making it seem like every other engine builders' specs aren't valid except yours (that you haven't even personally measured whether by degreeing or a cam doctor etc) so you are just passing off information as gold. Your buddies Derek and Calvin are really familiar with me so I am sure they understand that I am just looking for YOUR personal data to back up your claims.

You've got no data to support your claim that Pro2s are so much bigger, other than going by what others "say." Your cam specs say that the Pro2s have more "lift" but with less duration huh? Yet that makes them bigger? You also claimed that Pro2s had "WAY more duration" at 256* when some of those listed have more duration, anywhere from 258-263+ degrees, I am pretty sure 256 is a smaller number than 263?

Talking about not understanding cams, I thought we all agreed that lift and duration doesn't tell the whole story yet you are making your claim on the "lift" numbers? Kinda contradicting..

Just looking for a valid explaination of your claim that Pro2s are much bigger cams than the others listed, if you don't have any data to prove it, please don't misinform the rest of the members on the site. Derek knows this, like he's stated before, when he started his cam lineup and even till today, everyone asks for data to back up his cams.

No need to take it as a personal attack.

 

what determines what lift should be run?

 

Like I said, I'm always down to have an intelligent discussion involving all motor topics.

I recently just switched cams in my personal B20/VTEC. I did quite a bit of research before deciding on what cams to run. (In hindsight I wish I had contacted DDtech, but I digress)

Before I get into why I chose my cams, I guess I should start by saying that I've been around the all motor forum for years, long before my current join date indicates. I was around in the heyday of HT when people like Combustion Contraption, DonF, Rocket, Larry from Endyn, Mikeyspec, Tony Shagday, Tbone, and many other VERY intelligent people posted daily. I learned a lot in that time, in fact, I've probably forgotten more than a lot of people learn. There have been so many arguments about the Jun grind, I guess we should start there.

The Jun3 profile is one of the most iconic and replicated B series cam profiles of all time. It simply works whether it's a 1.6 liter or a hogged out 2 liter at 13:1. Now, when Skunk2 first came out with the Tuner series, the Tuner2 was also showing GREAT potential... in fact, on some motors it was hanging with, or beating the Jun3s. This lead EVERYBODY to start claiming that the Skunk2s were just copies of the Jun3s. They aren't. In fact, they're close, but ultimately quite a bit different. Both have very similar amounts of lift and duration however. (Reason #1 I knew your posted specs of the tuner series was off. NO stage 2 cams of that era had over 12.5mm of lift)

Now, Buddy Club came out with the Spec 4s shortly after the Skunks, and again, they seemed to hang with the Juns and had similar specs, so again they were labeled Jun3 copies. The reality is that they are "copies" of the Skunk tuner 2s, and on paper they have the same specs. But, they have different lobes and ramp angles, and the Buddy Clubs tend to make more power, despite the EXACT same specs on paper. They also carry the Toda C primaries, I'd consider them to fall right inbetween the Skunk Pro 1 and Pro 2 as far as size.

We are all aware of the fact that bigger is not always better... Tbone made over 20whp MORE on the Buddy Club spec4s over the Skunk Tuner3s 10 years ago bro. The tuner 3s have much more lift.... without looking it up I think the intake has a full 13mm.

Then Blox came out with the Spec C. It is an EXACT replica of the Jun3, people have taken out their Jun3 cams and installed Blox type Cs and the dyno plot didn't budge.

When Skunk came out with the Pro series, it dominated everything. There was no shelf cam profiles that could keep up. It has to do with the ramp angles, paired with the massive lift and the correct amount of duration. The bottom line is they just work.

So, you're probably asking yourself, why didn't I go with the Pro2s if they're so good? Because they're huge. As you know I'm friends with local tuners, and every person I have talked to has warned me that they are large cams, and I would need to worry about P2V and V2V and to make sure they are degreed in. I'm over 12.5:1 and TBH I don't know the dome size of my pistons, so I'd rather err on the side of safety. Also, I'm running Toda valve springs and I didn't want to switch to a full Pro series valve train to run the Pro2s, since that's what it would take to have peace of mind with cams that large. Also, I'd have to change out my LMAs because cams with that much lift will almost certainly bind the stock ones.

So, my lengthy answer to your question, is that many people have told me, as well as having seen it with my own eyes, and Skunk 2 will verify, the Pro 2 cams are substantially bigger than any "Jun 3" profile.

 

Compression, head flow, intake size and velocity, piston dome, exhaust, and I'm sure there's some other factors I'm forgetting.

 

That's a start ré lift

I'd like to see what Jun 4s do. Maybe Blox can make those