Just picked up some used Toda C cams on a whim. Not sure if I should keep them, stay stock ITR or get something else like skunk, rocket, jun etc. Car is mainly a track car and light street. Currently putting down 181hp 126lbf on a mustang dyno, I was expecting more. I'd like to be solidly over 200hp and reliable without snapping timing belts if that sounds reasonable. Stock injectors almost at 100% I was told.

Current setup:
Started with stock b18c5 type r motor.
Built by pure-tuning.com
Mahle 81.5 9cc dome pistons milled .050" to get 12:1 cr
Carrillo Pro A Light rods
Acl bearings
b18c1 replacement block (the c5 was milled incorrectly)
Puretuning specB head porting
Stock valves, springs, retainers
hondata IM gasket
Comptech icebox
Replica Toda header
2.5" carsound cat
Mugen exhaust
Hondata S300
Everything else is stock ITR including a/c and ps.
Dyno graph:

 

Toda C cams like ITBs a lot.

 

You have Toda cams, and you're asking if you should switch to skunk or rocket? LOL

If I remember right, mustang dynos read a lot lower than dynojet, you may be real close to 200 by everyone elses standards.
And it goes without saying but get some higher flowing injectors asap lol

 

That compression begs for something more than stock cams doe

 

You'll need springs that can handle more lift

See chart

 

Like I said, I bought them on a whim. If I won't hit 200hp I'll just leave it as is so I can avoid the extra maintenance and expense. I previously dyno'd on a dynojet with similar numbers 177hp 122lbf before the rebuild. The tuner said his mustang dyno had very similar numbers with dynojet.
So, I'd need springs, retainers and injectors (RDX?) From the chart I guess the Supertech H1002D springs should work unless you think there is an advantage of having lower spring pressure with the RM springs?

 

Supertech or RM

 

i still feel like the supertech 100d springs and the oem k20 retainers is a great valvetrain for the buck.

so how much more stress would the addtional 18lbs of the supertechs put on the timing belt as the op is concerned about compared to the oe itrs?

how close to coil bind is too close? whats the safe limit.


and op- from my own personal experience, 12:1 really wants something more than itr cams...

 

That they do - see sig OP.

Those cams would be a good match for your current setup - but they will require stiffer valve springs, tuning, and a stronger timing belt.

Keep in mind that these cams will wear out valvetrain and timing belts faster.

I changed belts every 15-20k miles, and wore out a set of Toda valve springs in 45k miles with spec C's.

I say do it!

 

Even on say stock b18c5 compression?

 

OP - you were expecting 200 from a bump in compression and minor head work?

I personally would be happy with what you made. It's obviously not a hero dyno(which is good), and it looks like a healthy motor. You spent money on parts that didn't need replacing to make more power, but thats ok.

Put the Toda cams in, do a less restrictive intake and exhaust - you'll break the 200 barrier no problem.

Yes.

 

Don't go with RDX unless your heart is just set on the extra work and possibly cost involved. Just get a set of RC injectors and be done with it

 

I have a box stock b18c5 in a mini with jenvey itb's and was wondering about a cam swap but I should make my own thread. Sorry op

 

They cost about the same, why go with a lesser injector?

 

How is it the lesser injector? RDX is OEM sure, but I've never heard a single bad thing about RCs, ever. I just suggested it in case he doesn't want to go through the trouble of rail and manifold modification, pigtails, hats, etc. that's all

 

Bosch style injectors atomize fuel better. Newer technology. RC(Saturated-peak/hold) is old, tired technology.

Bosch injectors are available as plug and play. Just as easy as "RC."

 

RDX is not plug and play though, at all, it can be a pain if you don't know exactly what you need. Good to know they atomize better, I think I read on Rywire.com that they have a different spray pattern, when I ordered from there

 

I've always ran RC injectors myself. But discussing with my tuner, he said to run a ev6/ev14 style injector. RC is old technology. Try looking at the "black ops" style injectors from five0motorsports.com . They come with pigtails, and/or you can buy a wireless "plug and play" adapter as well thru them. This is what I did this go around.

 

RDX injectors are 100% P/P. Xencron sells a kit for around 300 bucks total, with hats, injectors and connector. They are a 410CC injector at minimal base pressure, they have a better spray patter and design as well as you get more for less. Anyone who's still using Percision injectors, or RC injectors are still living in the past and leaving some power on the table, as well as other things.. @ 60psi base pressure the RDX's will flow like a 500+CC injector and will allow you more then enough room for a 200-300+whp application.

As far as camshafts, I've measured and had first hand experince with the Toda C's, I've repaired 5 sets in the last 4 months as well from LMA blinding issues.. I think honestly they would be a great camshaft for what you have, although some better options are out. They are a single pattern camshaft, meaning same INT/EXH profile. They are a great street type camshaft.

If you're looking for something to out perform them, PM me, I'll be happy to help.

Unless you're going kinslers, dont waste your time with any other ITB, I've had a fair share of testing in this area as well, unless you can custom length the horns, you're really leaving power on the table. Take my opinion for what its worth, however, unlike most, i speak from experince, Not what i read.

 

Thanks for the input guys. Yeah, maybe unrealistic, I was hoping for around 190 with the rebuild and tuning after seeing other type r guys rebuild.
Ok, i'm sold on the RDX injectors. I priced out the RC injectors and black ops, they all end up being about the same price or higher than the RDX kit from xencron. I think i'll hang on to the Toda C's and maybe slowly gather parts. Not ready to pull the motor to do springs/retainers/degree cams. Can you degree cams with the motor in the car? Do I need to degree the cams?
I didn't realize that valve springs wear out too. Looking at the chart I'm wondering if the RM G2 springs might be better since they have lower pressure and higher bind so they might last longer and be easier on the valve train?
Defiantly not going ITB. I'd prefer to keep the manifold and throttle body, actually I'd prefer to keep the header,cat, and exhaust too.

 

I think you need to slow down on your posts man.

 

You were seeing numbers from hero dynos. Stockish ITR motors do not make 185+. The dynos that you see of those are falsified. For some reason people think their #'s are something to brag about....I personally am more interested in track times.

No. Some people will insist you do, but these cams aren't big enough to insist on degreeing. When you get into Pro3's or some of DD Tech's cams...thats when I say you would absolutely need to.

Springs themselves don't wear, but poor retainer design will cause premature retainer wear.

That chart that Rocket posted is old. Like 8 years old. He hasn't sold the "gen2" spring for over 5 years.

I personally would do S2's Pro spring/retainer or Supertechs. Both of those are a snap-fit retainer and will last you a long, long time given they are installed correctly.

Good for you for not going ITB. Lots of hype behind those. The cat and exhaust are nice, but you could spend a couple hundred bucks with Ktellar and get a 3" system that you could use for dyno/race days and keep your nice exhaust for the streets.

I have a Mugen twin loop myself, but am going to have a 3" done with a Vibrant or Magnaflow muffler for race day

 

The SLs are a ton better than the G2s

Better mfg, better mfg process, better material

RM, Supertech in that order--my opinion

 

I was thinking chromoly retainers for longer life. I remember seeing titanium retainers wearing paper thin back in the early 2000's after about 20k miles. Has this snap fit design helped in this respect? Anyone know if the RM SL's have a snap fit design for retainers in steel or titanium? OMG?
I've been out of it for a while, I thought the Toda C was a pretty big cam.

If starting from scratch i'd do the big exhaust but I already have the mugen. I already have a hard time swapping in track pads for track days, no way am i doing exhaust too.

 

SL are snap fit with OE retainers (B16/GSR or K20A2 p/n 14675-PRB-A00) and with Supertech Ti Ret

the k20 14657-PRB-A00 is nice, has better seal-to-ret clearance than the stock B16/GSR ret