Its been a while since i have been on here, but I would like to make a sticky thread on the manual tensioner for the h22 by kaizenspeed.

I have a high horsepower motor build using a 97mm crank and skunk2 cams. You can see everything along with a dyno from previous posts.

The Kaizenspeed tensioner has failed on my motor 2 times. The problem is that the setup puts all the stress from the timing assembly on the weak bolt on the water pump.

There are reports of the water pump housing cracking from other people using this setup.

I am now switching to the H23 manual tensioner and will let everyone know the results.

I think that others have most likely experienced this problem, but think that maybe they think they did something wrong.... I would like to collect info. I think this thing should be taken off the market to say the least.

 

I have attached a picture of the H23 manual tensioner from Honda. They do not use the weaker bolt off the water pump housing to support tension from the timing belt. (Kind of coincidental, seeming how the water pump bolt is smaller and weaker)

 

I have attached a picture of the H23 manual tensioner from Honda. They do not use the weaker bolt off the water pump housing to support tension from the timing belt. (Kind of coincidental, seeming how the water pump bolt is smaller and weaker)

 

never had a problem. On my daily or race car that saw 11000rpm, or other prelude owners and H22 people I am friends with who do similar projects as I.


I find it hard to see that you can blame it on such a simple product when countless others have not had issues.

 

I understand that most people don't have an issue with it, but tension on that bolt is the only way it can break.

My engine ran fine for a few thousand miles, then the bolt just randomly breaks.
Its happened to me 2 times already.

Do you have any idea why that water pump bolt would just snap? Never had it break when running the auto- tensioner....

 

If someone had the same issue; and they were not using the KS manual tensioner I would love to see it.

Also, the RPMs have bolt breaking or not; mine broke at 2,850 rpm's. After taking it up to 8,500 perfectly fine.

 

First of all, the water pump and the tension arm are OEM parts. The KAIZENSPEED tensioner applies tension to that arm in the same way the OEM hydraulic tensioner does. The KAIZENSPEED tensioner just does it without a flawed hydraulic body.

The H23 manual tensioner relies on a bigger pulley that makes it extremely difficult to install a timing belt and doesn't allow for adjustable tension because it's just over-tight all the time.

There are over 2,000 KAIZENSPEED tensioners in use. Sounds like you are using a non-OEM water pump.

 

I am using an OEM water pump.
The KS setup takes out the larger bolt as shown in the video linked on your site.

The OEM setup doesn't allow the water pump to take the full force of the belt tension.

Many setups it works fine (I completely agree), its just that I have lost 2 heads due to the KS tensioner.

I think 95% of the setups it probably has no issues. I have a unique setup.

I just want to let people know that the H23 manual tensioner is actually more reliable since its a genuine honda part (and places the tension on a larger bolt); and I will opt for the H23 manual tensioner.

Do you have any idea how that bolt could break? The water pump bolt?
If you use the H23 manual tensioner it can't break because you don't run that bolt at all.

 

My water pump is not breaking, the bolt on the water pump is actually snapping. You know the bolt on the water pump that holds the tensioner pulley, that is the bolt that is breaking. Its the second time this has happened using the KS.

The first time KS told us that the timing belt was too tight, so the second time we ran it pretty loose; still broke.

 

So let me get this straight, an aluminum machined 2 bolt manual tensioner that is a direct replacement of the auto tensioner caused damaged to your engine? and somehow miraculously puts more stress on a bolt that was there to begin with and saw the same amount of stress since the beginning of its design...

Your logic here with the Kaizenspeed product appears flawed.

Perhaps you overtightened the timing belt? Perhaps many things. Out of the X amount of people running this piece, you are the first I have ever seen an issue...and it happened twice. Install error? Other product failure? Don't know. But going around saying this tensioner caused that bolt to break is a bit asinine.

Also, I don't know if that is your picture or not but you are supposed to remove the stud in the eyelet of the arm.

 

You got it mostly right.

As far as I know there are only 2 possibilities for this bolt breaking(unless you can give me another possibility):

1. The water pump bolt is too weak to permanently withstand the tension of the belt on my motor


2. The engine had interference and that caused unusually high tension and the belt snapped that bolt off that way (at 2,850 RPM).

Since I don't think we can go around popping Vtec and rev 8.500 and then later; get random P2V interference at 2,850 RPM's..... out of no where. That's the reason I assumed my first option.

Do you know another possibility?

 

It would be different if you were asking a question about the problem you are having.

 

No, that actually was not my picture; I placed the picture there for illustration purposes only. I have been building this with several guys input; all of which have pointed towards KS as the root of the problem here.

This could be wrong. That's why I am asking input from others on this issue. It seems very coincidental that KS setup places tension only on the bolt coming from the water pump; when Honda's manual tensioner does not even use that bolt at all.

I found another write up where someone cracked the actual water pump using this KS setup. On the Honda Genuine Manual tensioner, you can't crack the water pump or break the bolt on the water pump simply because that bolt is not used to support the belt's tension.

If I go ahead with the honda genuine manual tensioner and no problems arise, I have factored out the issue with my build. If I have another problem with it while using the honda h23 tensioner I will delete everything bad I ever said about KS.

If my problem is fixed by going with another style I will recommend as many people as possible to use the Honda part.

 

Yes I guess you are right in the sense that I completely blamed them.
I came off a little too aggressive against KS on this; but people get upset when you loose a couple grand......

But the other tensioner setup (h23) doesn't even use the bolt running off the water pump, so there would be no way to break that bolt if running the genuine honda part.

 

Have you tried using a Grade A type bolt there..?

 

The KS tensioner is not putting any more stress on the water pump then the auto tensioner would as it operates the exact same way besides the fact that it requires manual adjusment.

You are either overtightening the large bolt on the waterpump housing or you are overtraveling the adjuster pulley and bottoming it out on the smaller "stud" next to the large bolt and it is acting as a lever snapping off the waterpump casting.

 

Rosko, maybe you are right. It might not put more stress on the water pump bolt than the auto tensioner.

I was thinking about using a Higher grade bolt there, but I read online that someone had a cracked water pump housing doing this.

I was trying to compare it to the H23 manual tensioner. The H23 setup doesn't use that bolt.

I am looking into the possibility that interference caused tension on one side, and since that bolt is the weakest link, it just broke.

I am thinking I will try to go with the h23 setup and see if it happens again.

 

I am not using the smaller stud in the waterpump.
The bolt sitting on the water pump is tightened to torque specs for the h22 motor.

 

Sounds like one of a few things to me (and i havent heard of ANYONE else having this issue)


Install error
User error
Pebkac
Id10t error

Or just plain negligence (especially as it was somehow repeated)... Derp


or just a general You dont have CLUE... and shouldnt be allowed to mod a lawnmower...

The fact that YOURE THE ONNNNNNNNNLLLLYYYYY one (That Ive ever heard of) having ANY issue should point you in the direction that YOU or YOUR SETUP is the issue...

Its STILL, simply a manual setup. Now If you TIGHTEN THE **** OUT OF THE TENSIONER (WHICH YOU COULD DO WITH THE H23 SETUP AS WELL IF YOU COULD MANAGE THIS) OEM or not, same result. I suggest re thinking your... "Concern"


**** works great...

760 WHP/575 TQ... NON OEM waterpump... Then again, I didnt use a impact to tighten that bolt... Did you???

 

Ok, that was just plain stupid of you to write on here.

You have no technical explanation of how "user error" can cause this failure.
If you did, I would take your input and learn from my mistakes and point it out to others to make sure they didn't make the same mistake.

If you could describe or explain the installation error, that would be helpful. But you are not being helpful or smart with your A B or C.

We have had multiple engine builders and machine shops working with us on this build and a lot of support from very talented people looking it over.

Dan at Farmer's automotive in Webster NY and others have helped with this build.

For your information; there are other people that have ended up with the same thing happening; just because you have not heard of it doesn't mean I am the only case.

What I have posted here makes complete sense.

You can compare the pictures and understand that the water pump bolt can't break if you are running the H23 manual tensioner setup. That is the main thing I am pointing out. I am addressing this as a possible issue and I would really like to see if others have had this issue.

If you have not had the issue; you are like the 95% of the people that have not, if you HAD the issue I would like your input because that would HELP me to fix it.

There is no point to come on here attacking other people who are looking for assistance.

 

Enough of the wise *** remarks. I don't need any one attacking me, I designed a nearly 300whp pump gass h22 all motor setup on the first build. If I was that dumb how could I have done that. I didnt blow up on the dyno. Most people didn't get these numbers NA.

Does anyone know if engine interference could be the cause of this waterpump bolt breaking? If so, who would it happen outside VTEC ?

 

its great you can accomplish that but it doesnt help your situation. Youve got people getting onto you because of the way you have brought up this situation with a company that has done a ton of research with the H series and continues to support them.

bad resonance/harmonics can do a lot of damage. Bad resonance ended up backing out my flywheel bolts that were locktited, which tore apart my balancer, which then broke my intake camshaft bending all my valves. It also backed off my oil filter nearly all the way off but the engine shut down before I lost oil. I've yet to really pin point the cause to one thing, like you, and probably never will. So I learn as much as I can from it and keep trucking. Btw, when all that happened, my timing belt stayed in tact and nothing broke on the timing side and I use and LOVE the KStuned tensioner.


side note:
Making that kind of power nowadays is pretty easy with enough money and the right dyno. Most people, real racers, also pay more attention to the graph itself and the track times instead of the numbers the computer produces as they can vary so easily between dynos and areas of the world.

 

Ok. So you have had an instance where interference occurred and nothing still broke on the timing side at all? I had that once with this same motor.

One time my crank bolt came loose on a dyno run and the same thing happened. That time nothing gave at all on the timing side.

Maybe I should have made a post:
"Stupid idiot forgot to torque down the crankshaft bolt to spec and use loctite."


The other time I had interference it was this water pump bolt...

The crankshaft bolt scenario is fine because at least I know what caused it

 

interference is mechanical. are you referring to mechanical interference or harmonic frequency?

Ive never had a problem with the H23 tensioner or the KStuned one. I like the KStuned so much more because my old street engine used a .051 gasket and i had to remove the cam caps and tilt the cams up in order to get the belt on. With this unit, I wouldnt have to do that.

 

I meant piston to valve interference.

I thought if the valves hit the pistons and you are in gear and moving, the forward momentum of the car will cause an overabundance of tension on the timing belt, thus causing that bolt to break under excessive pressure.

I guess when I was on the dyno, interference in the motor is different because the car has no forward momentum.

Just another guess.