The car is a 1988 CRX HF with a 1998 D16Y8 (using RyWire OBD2 alternator adapter, OBD2 distributor adapters, VTEC/O2 subharness, and OBD0 to OBD1 ECU jumper for my chipped P28).

Purchased the car April 29, 2011. Replaced deck and radio wiring May 19, 2011 (previous deck was hardwired). Replaced ignition switch wire harness and blower motor resistor June 1, 2011. Had an alarm installed July 8, 2011. Posted a thread about having intermittent bucking issues, sometimes dying on starts, and CEL 7 and 17 (VSS, TPS) July 20, 2011, though I likely had problems since May or so). Swapped the transmission ('88 Si) and main relay September 2012.

Swapped the engine December 30, 2012 (still was having the intermittent bucking issues up to before the swap, used the same HF harness because I had no other, but we did not use the EGR or BARO anyway). Replaced the speedo head in January 2012, after the odometer and tripmeter suddenly quit working. I don't think I've really done anything else electrically related since then besides the battery/alternator replacements:

First had to replace the alternator February 2, 2012 (also replaced battery at this time), and then again September 1, 2012. I replaced the battery again December 30, 2012. A lot of the wiring and all the grounds got checked over, and some repaired in January 2013.

And now the other day I saw pulsing lights again.

So I'm lead to believe my internal voltage regulator is having issues, yet again.

How do I trace what is killing my voltage regulator?

 

The following grounds were checked on the car in January. Some of the areas were sanded down and reconnected afterward. These are all of the grounds on the '88 HF, as per the 1988 Electrical Troubleshooting Manual from Honda.

(Ground - Location - Photo Number in Manual - Associated items)

G1 - Right front of engine compartment - photo 7 - Transmission ground, battery ground, starting system, charging system

G2 - Left front of engine compartment, on radiator support - photo 4 - Engine ground

G151 - On right rear side of engine - photo 20 - PGM-FI

G201 - right front of engine compartment - photo 12 - Charging system, PGM-FI, wiper/washer, headlights, front side marker lights, turn signal & hazard lights

G301 - Left front corner of engine compartment - photo 4 - Brake warning system, wiper/washer, headlights, front side marker lights, front marker lights, turn signal & hazard lights

G401 - Behind left side of dash, near kick panel - photo 46 - PGM-FI, rear window defogger, ICU, brake warning system, seat belt & key on warning system, indicators, gauges, wiper/washer, headlights, front side marker lights, turn signal & hazard lights, cigarette lighter, dash & console lights, clock

G511 - center rear of rear compartment, behind panel - photo 69 - Seat belt & key on warning system, gauges, turn signal & hazard lights, tail & rear side marker & license plate lights, brake lights

G551 - On lower right of hatch - photo 68 - PGM-FI, tail & rear side marker & license plate lights, brake lights

G701 - Below left side of dash, near steering column - photo 38 - Dash & console lights, stereo sound system

G821 - On left rear of hatch, below glass - photo 65 - Rear window defogger

 

Check your battery connections as well as all your ground connections.
If you don't have good contact, then the alternator will want to be on more which makes it heat up. More heat adds to early failures.

When is the last time you got a new battery?
Any cables changes out - some cables get water inside the insulation and corrode.

Added load, like a big stereo system, will draw on the alternator a lot more as well. Obviously the stock alternator wasn't intended to provide for this so, again, it will work more and heat up.

 

Checked the battery connections again last night. They're on there SOLID.

The battery was last replaced in December 2012. (I updated the first post to have a bit more of the car's electrical history btw.)

Unfortunately, the CRX uses one of those weird battery cables where it her a terminal in the dead center. The cable is meant to go from the battery, to the chassis, to the transmission. I had tried to buy a replacement, but Honda no longer sells them. I can see about replacing it with two aftermarket cables once I get my paycheck in a week.

The only audio type stuff I have in the car is a Sony deck (CD player/USB/aux) and a GPS (which plugs into the cigarette lighter). The alternator in there is for the '98 Civic EX (fully loaded model with power steering, a/c, power moonroof, power windows, power locks, cd player, 12volt plug/cigarette lighter, 4 speaker plus tweeters). Needless to say, my little HF isn't quite so equipped.

 

While running, using the multimeter across the battery posts, I'm getting 15.29-15.32 volts.

 

that's seems kinda high. isn't it supposed to be more around 14~ volts while running?

 

That's what I thought.

Just removed the radio and cigarette lighter in case it was a cause. Guess I'll need to look into a new alternator anyway (figured that). Still need to know where to go from there, because it's become obvious to me that it's not just the alternator. Something is repeatedly killing my voltage regulators in my alternator. The grounds were all checked (and some cleaned before being reinstalled) in January, so what else could it be?

 

Sounds like you need a whole new alternator.

 

I knew that before I made this thread.

I am not asking if my alternator is bad. I have experienced three bad alternators on this exact car so far. I am asking how to test what is killing my voltage regulator (which is in the alternator).

So, how do I test what is killing my voltage regulator?

OFF TOPIC:

Just did the fuel gauge test (my gauge reads either FULL or the level it's supposedly at), to find that instead of putting out battery voltage, it's only getting 7 volts. (This points to either a bad fuse #1, poor grounds at G511 or G561, or an open in the YEL/WHT or BLK wire.) (page 23-92)

 

what types of alternator's are you getting? reman, autozone, or oem?

autozone sells that ground cable.

have you thought about running maybe a bigger pulley?


dont know why, but thinking might have to check distributor.

 

Autozone alternators. Honda quotes theirs at $274.41 with a $30 core (they require an OE core, btw).

I didn't see the ground cable on their website. I saw different options, but none look like it, or look like they'd work the same way.

The pulley is the one that matches the alternator (both for the '98 D16Y8, which came on a fully loaded car with lots of power options, the HF has really none of those, so the current pulley shouldn't be the problem in theory).

Curious about why the distributor might be suggested.

I did find that one bad connection mentioned above btw. The one on the fuel gauge sending unit. I want to do another test to a related suspect ground as well.

Tonight I noticed that the lights pulse at idle and when I'm on the gas, but when I brake, the lights don't pulse.

Going to check ignition to alternator, starter wiring, and the ELD tomorrow, once I have light.

 

This is one of those subjects where I feel the need to state my disclaimer: I am no expert and this is just THEORY. I work in a shop that does "basic maintenance" including battery replacements.

I have seen ALLLOT of batteries go bad because the battery was too small or too big for the car/truck. Small batteries on big vehicles will often overcharge, swell, leak acid, and rarely explode. On the other hand, BIG batteries on small vehicles are often UNDERCHARGED, which usually results in the battery only being half-charged at all times and usually the battery still dies prematurely.

That ends my experience..now comes the theory.

I would research what the amperage ratings are for the OEM alternator and the alternator you are running. Then be sure you are installing the battery for the alternator you have, not for the OEM vehicle. My logical theory is: A larger alternator charging a smaller OEM battery, will overcharge the battery and cause early battery failure...but ALSO (in theory) cause undue "stress" on the alternator?? Does the alternator have to turn on/off as the voltage regulator determines need for power from the alternator?? If so, it is logical that the voltage regulator is being overworked.

To test the theory, after you get the new alternator (and battery if needed), get an alternator test performed. Check the voltage levels "with" and "without" load. Also, I would use a multimeter to monitor the voltage level of the battery in "real time" to see if the voltage is continuously fluctuating (as if the alternator is turning on/off/on/off). The typical alternator test I first mentioned will take a "instant snapshot" reading of the output voltage, but watching a multimeter will let you SEEEEE the voltage levels changing.

If you become SURE that you need to adjust the charging level, theoretically, I imagine that changing the size of the alternator pulley will increase/decrease the revolutions of the alternator and directly affect the output voltage?? (again, I work on batteries, not alternators...I just learn as I go).

Again...all theory...don't spend any money unless you are sure. However, an alternator test and monitoring a multimeter are generally free (if you already own a multimeter).

 

It appears both models call for the same Group Size 51 battery, with the same CCA/CA.

I have a multimeter. I already read across my battery terminals:
The alternator is very difficult to remove on this car (I need to disconnect the master cylinder and move it, and even then it's a tight squeeze). I'll be replacing the alternator anyway, as since the lights pulse (except when I'm braking...), the voltage regulator is likely toast already. Every Honda I've had, if the lights flash this much, the voltage regulator in the alternator is already done.

 

I meant to do the alternator test and multimeter monitoring for fluctuations AFTER you get everything running well again. I'm curious about the levels while it is running in its normal state. I know you said they both use the same battery, but it'll still be free tests to monitor it in its natural state.

 

Is this^ possibly the problem? How do the specs of this^ alternator compare to the stock one meant for your car?

 

Another logical question .

If:

alt1 = your car's oem size alternator
alt2 = the swapped alternator
need1 = your car's oem voltage need (while running) for oem electronics
need2 = the swapped alternator's original car's need for voltage
battery1 = your cars battery = the swapped alternator's original car's oem battery....both the same.

So we know the intended uses and oem applications tell us:

alt1 - need1 = charging battery1 properly
alt2 - need2 = charging battery1 properly

So I guess it's logical that:

alt2 - need 1 = improperly charging battery1.........and stressing the alternator??

It's a theory that makes sense, and I have spent enough hours trying to explain to customers: "Just because it cranks when you put that wrong battery in, that doesn't mean it is going to LAST." I've seen firsthand that batteries will go bad if overcharged AND even if undercharged. I can't confirm anythings about the results of "swapped components" and mix/match systems because I don't have experience studying the results.

I hope the theories I am mentioning will help you find your answer.

 

was sure i saw it on the site, for the grounding cable. they might have stopped selling it.

and i suggested the pulley, cause it might be forcing the alternator to be spinning faster then what it would normally be spinning in a obd2 civic.

just throwing out the idea on the distributor. something about crank censor or bad coil comes to mind. don't know why, but is a thought.

now for the fact that your stating you have a autozone alternator. really not surprised that your regulator keeps on going out. gotta love the stuff that's made in china.

i say that cause i have a weird alternator problem. once i hit 7500 rpms my battery light kicks on, but only then, and everything else is fine. i've asked some people about it, and they say the regulator might be bad. it still works charges fine, and everything, just a weird fact that at that high of a rpm, the battery light comes on. this has happend to me twice. one with a advance, and the current is a autozone (couldn't use the warranty for the advance cause i bought it through my brothers account, which he closed when his shopped closed).

you might just have to keep swapping out alternators till you find one that won't blow on you. will make you be super skilled at taking off your hub, and removing axle real quick, after a couple tries.

 

I could not find that information in the manuals yet. Autozone lists them as the same CCA/CA. You do realize the '98 Civic has way way more power accessories and such than the CRX HF, right? The HF doesn't have any power options. No power steering, no power doors, no power windows, only two speakers, no moonroof, etc. and so forth.

CRX (FSM 3-11)
Battery
Lighting capacity (20-hour ratio) = 47 Ampere Hours
Starting capacity (5-second ratio) = 9.2 V min. at 300 Ampere draw

(FSM 23-33)
LOAD TEST CHART
BATTERY CODE / LOAD (AMPS)
20, 24, 52, and NX 100 / 160 amps
23 / 180 amps
26 and Delco / 200 amps

Alternator (Nippon Denso)
Output = 13.5V / 60A
MEASUREMENT / STANDARD (NEW) / SERVICE LIMIT
- Coil resistance (rotor) = 2.8-3.0 ohm / ± 0.1 ohm
- Slip ring O.D. = 32.5 (1.28) / 32.1 (1.26)
- Brush length = 13.5 (0.53) / 4.5 (0.18)
- Brush spring tension = 300-500g (10.6-17.6 oz) / -----

Civic
Battery (FSM pge 23.78)
Battery code 55B24L - MF
CCA 405 (55B24L - MF (S) = 410)
LOAD 200 amps

Alternator (FSM page 3-14)
MEASUREMENT / STANDARD (NEW) / SERVICE LIMIT
- Output 13.5V at hot A = 75 /
- Coil resistance (rotor) at 68°F (20°C) kΩ = 3.4-3.8 / -----
- Slip ring O.D. = 22.7 (0.89) / 22.2 (0.87)
- Brush length = 19.0 (0.75) / 5.0 (0.20)
- Brush spring tension g (oz) = 300-450 (10.6-15.9) / -----



The battery is the same as the battery that would be put in a car with the engine. The alternator (which matches the engine) is an upgrade compared to the one that would originally be in the car.
The P28 ECU is chipped to run a stock D16Y8 basemap (for example, I know the Y8 timing is different than the D16Z6 the ECU originally ran). Nothing makes me think the alternator would be spinning at a different speed than it should. Ignore that it's technically not OBD2. It's running a program that acts like a D16Y8 program.

I don't remove the alternator by removing the axle. I remove it by moving the brake master cylinder. We already replaced the alternator twice so far.

Oh, and today an old acquaintance (Honda technician) showed up at the store and said he might have a used OE alternator for me. So I'll be calling him about that soon (I know he had his own projects under way today, and I had work).

He also suggested that a lot of Hondas just do not like aftermarket alternators.

 

I remembered that you had previously said that both cars use the same battery. That is why I only listed "battery1" in my theoretical equations. For example, if I am reading your last post right:

alt1 (60amps) - need1 (mininal for that year) = battery1

AND

alt2 (75amps) - need2 (all electric options) = battery1 (same as the older car)

---------------------------------------------------------

If you aren't understanding my theory, I will give a math example:

x= let's say.....10. And we will say that x (with a value of 10) is the size of the same battery needed in both cars because....

60amps minus a NEED of 50 in the old car = 10 (battery)
so....60 - 50 = 10

AND

75amps minus a higher NEED (all electric) of 65 = 10 (same battery)
so...75 - 65 = 10

----------------------------

In conclusion, for example's sake, based on my fictional numbers:
a 75amp alternator minus a minimal need (older car) DOES NOT EQUAL the factory battery.
75 - 50 is NOT EQUAL to 10...

I would expect a 75amp alternator in the older car to OVERCHARGE the battery. To prevent overcharging, I believe it is the job of the voltage regulator to maintain proper voltage levels by turning on/off the alternator. So I would expect the regulator to burn out prematurely because it is being overworked.

Again, this is all just theory based on my years of experience in seeing overcharged and undercharged batteries going bad prematurely.

Now you will want to consult an alternator expert to ask about the different coil resistance ratings of the 2 alternators...I have no idea if that is related to the problem of frequent alternator failure.

 

I cited my source earlier (I do this in my threads often because it helps the readers/possible help, and it helps me in the future if I need to read back and need specific information that an **** retentive person like I am might want).

A replacement battery (most people do not buy replacement batteries from the dealership) from Autozone, for example, is the same for the '98 Civic EX versus the '88 CRX HF. Same exact part numbers.

Here's the information from another parts store, O'Reilly:

CRX
51R72
12 Volt
Cold Cranking Amps: 475
Cranking Amps: 590
Reserve Capacity: 70 Minutes
450 CCA
560 CA
70 Minute Reserve Capacity

Civic
51R72
12 Volt
Cold Cranking Amps: 475
Cranking Amps: 590
Reserve Capacity: 70 Minutes
450 CCA
560 CA
70 Minute Reserve Capacity

And here's the information from HondaPartsDeals.com:

CRX
BATTERY ASSY. (51/500AMP85)
31500-SB2-100M

Civic
BATTERY (51R/500AMP85)
31500-SR1-100M

 

I have fully understood your statement each time: "both cars use the same battery." But I have been trying to explain why they both use the same battery. I'll try one last time..lol..

The newer car has a stronger alternator because the newer car has more need for power.
The older car has a weaker alternator because it has a lower need for power.

If you take the stronger alternator, and put it on the car with lesser need...there will be excess power. That excess power will either overcharge the battery or the voltage regulator will be exhausted trying to maintain a proper battery charge without overcharging the battery.

hehe....picture an empty dinner plate. Now put four cheeseburgers on it. Feed the four cheeseburgers to a fat guy (more electrical need of the newer car), and the four cheeseburgers will be stored away in his big stomach. No leftovers.

Now feed four cheeseburgers to a skinny guy (older car will less electrical need), and you will find yourself with 2 extra cheeseburgers left over. Now you gotta tell the cook (voltage regulator) to power down the grill (alternator) because we have too many cheeseburgers (power) left over.

I'd expect that cook (voltage regulator) to quit from the stress of constantly having to turn on/off the grill (alternator).... To humans, it's logical to think that it makes the cook's life easier, but when dealing with electrical components, it wears them out.

A light bulb can stay lit without blowing for, let's say...2 months. I would bet $20 that the bulb will blow out in a week or less if I stand there turning the switch on and off....either the bulb is gonna blow, or the switch is going to wear out.

Again, just logic. You are in unexplored territory when it comes to finding an answer. My theory makes sense if you can follow it. Call an alternator shop (or 2 or 3) and ask them: What happens if I put a larger alternator on my car? I'm guessing that if you talk to someone who have been doing it for years, they will tell you that an alternator and battery are designed to be synced with the need of the car. If you overflow the power with a larger alternator, something has to give...just my theory based on seeing batteries fail from overcharging/undercharging. Essentially, you are overcharging your battery unless the voltage regulator is working overtime to prevent overcharging.

 

Have you tried putting the CRX alt on there just to see what it does?

 

Here's something to keep in mind.
No longer taking any advice regarding replacing the alternator with the CRX alternator, or anything related to the problem being because of the engine swap that is in the car.

Please keep advice within the bounds of where I might want to test on a stock car, because electronically it is a stock car besides the alternator.

I appreciate the attempt at help, but it's just complete shots in the dark that maybe on this one particular swap (which works for many many others) the alternator is the wrong decision. How many people with D16Z6 swaps or D16Y8 swaps in EFs have you seen with this exact problem? This is not an uncommon swap into an uncommon chassis.

 

changing the pulley on the alternator has nothing to do with a base map tune, or the timing. it's an accessory.

let me put it in this term. if you were to change the pulley size on a super charger, the boost would go up or down depending on the size of the pulley. because, depending on the size of the pulley, the super charger would spin ether faster, or slower.

so putting a bigger pulley on that alternator, would probably slow the brushes down. the y8 alternator probably has a bigger pulley so it doesn't have to spin so much to create that much electricity. the pulley might not even be that much bigger. might only be maybe a millimeter or two larger. that's why your are getting around 15 volts, instead of the normal 14~.

 

just re read this. i thought you were running a y8 alternator on a hf engine,

saying that, still take into consideration on changing the pulley on the alternator. because you aren't running all the other accessory belts to slow the alternator down.

......... but it still is a little perplexing as to even if it is overcharging a little. why is it still burning out.

it could just be that you're having bad luck, and are getting crappy chinese made alternators.