anyone have any knowledge on the true benefits of extended ball joints on lowered civics? I was doing some work and noticed my ball joints were blown and seized inside my lcas. going to replace them and wondering if extended ball joints make much of a difference on the position of the nuckle and the angle the ball joint sits inside the lca when lowered.. or if the cheaper oem is just fine..

 

Don't bother, they appear to be snake oil and cause more problems with the handling than they solve.

 

It felt great to open this thread and find my thoughts already typed out for me by a clever fellow like yourself. +1.

 

What was your experience with them? You say appear but what is that based upon?

 

Kinematic suspension analysis.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes-54/adjustable-roll-center-adjusters-3009020/

They don't add up. I know people fit them, and think they're awesome, but you've got to question the integrity of someone who buys products they don't understand, and then is contending with a degree of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_justification, basically placing a higher value on something because of the effort (money) involved in fitting it. Personally, I see it all to often, people cannot accept they've wasted money, so will defend it fervently. The psychology of the car tuning scene.

'Because Race Car' or simply, "I've fitted them, therefore I know best" are both misnomers in this case. I would personally trust the people that have looked a bit deeper into a product, chosen NOT to use it, and explained their reasoning for doing so.

 

I agree with the issue of psychology associated with purchasing and installing items like this. Too many parts installers and not enough engineer minded thinkers. Its one of those items where I couldn't mentally shoot them down without real world evaluation. I do have them on my car and while I can't say it is superior under all driving aspects, I did notice a few things I liked. This is on my street/track day car. I feel that I gained more roll stiffness without any drawbacks such as a harsher ride. If I was setting up a dedicated racecar I would not use them unless it was a strut equipped car.

 

Did you find any issues with increased bump steer, or increased understeer?

What about yaw response? The reason the rear axle has a higher roll center is to get load transfer happening fast. The front develops slip angle in response to steering angle, but the back has to wait for the chassis to respond before it can do anything. Elastic load transfer, through the springs and bars, takes time to build, but the geometric LT through the RC is instantaneous, so the higher rear gets the back end responding quicker giving the car a more agile feel.

Altering the roll axis inclination with a higher front RC will make the front end response even quicker which might initially feel good, but without doing the same at the rear, the response time of the rear axle can be increased. All very minute stuff, but it's all the little details that make Honda's engineering as good as it is. After looking into it all, I elected not to screw with it, so my car stayed within about 1" of standard ride height, and maintained pretty stock geometry with the exception of increased camber. It handled exceptionally well. :D

 

I did not notice or measure any of the things you mentioned. I felt like I gained a bit of roll stiffness and a touch sharper turn in response without any drawbacks. This was a direct replacement procedure, not swapping a bunch a parts on the car and then hitting on ramps. I Installed the ball joints, reset my corner balance, ride height and rake. This is 1.25-1.5" lower than stock.

If someone asks if they are worth the money spent for my type of driving and application I would be on the fence. For the majority of drivers that frequent this forum (cheapskates) I can't say they are good bang for the buck.

 

what about wear, the only reason i was interested in them is i was wondering if they would last longer than a stock ball joint on a car thats priety low. in my opinion if they will last longer than factory on a low car then their worth the money but if not then i see not alot of point in them

 

Don't have too much rake where the rear is higher though. I had a 1.75" rake and the car became very unpredictable. The car would snap oversteer so fast that throttle input did nothing to correct it. I raised the front preloading the suspension and I have a 1.25" rake now and handling is drastically better! I'm going to tweak it a little more for a 1" rake as I feel that is a good point for overall handling and still maintaining downforce aerodynamics.

 

As far as wear goes they will not last longer than oem honda. Aftermarket parts generally never last as long and the design of the extended ones do nothing to favor longevity.

1.75" rake is a crazy amount, I can totally see the car being scary to drive as well as look rediculous. I have .5" on my dc2

 

At the fender arches it's only a half inch difference. At the actual frame rail it's a lot more.

 

I respect every answer and analogy of personal efforts and like. thank you for your input. there is not a whole bunch of info on this topic and have, for now, chosen on oem lower ball joints. a little more research, upgraded gsr knuckles, ex/si/ctr front lcas/forks ctr 24mm sway bar and I may go with extended ball joints. for now, simple oem. these lower extended ball joints just don't seem to have enough backing to be worth the buck fifty.

on a side note, you have any suggestions on what to lubricate the tie rod, upper and lower joints with so they are not destroyed on removal from the knuckle?

 

what are you using to remove it that you need lube?

 

bro, my **** was seized in the LCA. I have had some sticky ball joints before but this one... this one was effed! I used a pickle fork, then I used a hammer, then the pickle fork, then a air chisel pickle fork then I just took the entire knuckle and LCA off the car set it on the ground and beat the **** out of the lower ball joint with a framing hammer until it came out. There was a bunch of rust in the LCA and on the ball joint.

 

I just need to put something on them so that in the future they are not seized.