Hi Folks,

I bought my Type-R new and drove it almost every day - it had 165K miles on it when I sold it, and I'd maintained it with Acura, and it never EVER let me down. Best car I've ever owned.

I had been looking for a worthy replacement for my '98 Type-R (#21) for at least 4 years now, and have driven SO many cars that "might" be a fit. But I'd get out of a test drive and say to myself, "well it was fast allright." Then I'd get back in my Type-R to go home and say "ahhh - this is FUN".

If you're in this camp, looking for a FUN car like the Type-R, I have a suggestion for you. Either the Scion FRS or Subaru BRZ - try either one. When I did, after the 2nd corner I said "this is what I've been waiting for". Put traction control in sport mode (or disable it) and feel the fun.

It is just a HOOT to drive. So engaging. Fun at legal speeds. Every corner puts a smile on my face. It just feels right.

It's not super-fast by any measure, with 200HP and 151FtLb torque, but it only weighs around 2700 Lb. It's low center of gravity makes it turn almost telepathically, with no lean. Reminds me of my S2000 in that respect.

Feel free to ask questions either via PM or here.

I thought this would be a help for many of you who have been looking for something that's got modern safety equipment for example (side air bags etc...), or for folks who are ready to move on.

I know folks will say FWD is nothing like RWD, so you can't compare them, but as you all know, the R is almost unlike any other FWD car out there. And the fun-to-drive factor is absolutely "there" with the BRZ/FRS, and I'd argue it's missing from almost everything else out there.

So I've sold my R, and believe it or not, I'm ok with that. I'll be lurking on the R forum. The R is an amazing car.

But finally there is something that makes me smile like it did.

Steve

 

The toyobaru twins, IMO, still don't excite and have the driving dynamics of the ITR. The engine characteristics are muted, the suspension isn't as sorted, gearshift not as good, etc. RWD does help, but that isn't an end-all for having fun while driving.

Not that much else is an ITR replacement on the market, but the twins have been slightly over-hyped (for what you actually get). The motor is just all wrong for the car and the lack of double-wishbone on the front is a serious dissapointment. It is also not any better than the current Mazda MX5 that was first released in '06.

That's just my opinion but others may differ. I will agree that RWD is a good selling point vs. FWD, but the ITR just did so many things right that FWD wasn't even on your mind when you were driving it.

 

I agree somewhat about the engine being a bit muted, but on the boil it isn't slow that's for sure.

I disagree about the BRZ suspension - I find it quite well sorted and love the dynamics on the BRZ at least (never drove the FRS and I understand it's a bit more twitchy at the limit due to the different struts).

And I also don't have to think about where I park it, wondering if it will be there when I get back. That was annoying. Anything happens to my BRZ - plop on down to the Subaru and order another.

Again - just my opinion. I thought folks should at least be aware, since prior to me driving the BRZ, nothing NOTHING was really as fun as my Type-R.

Steve

 

I agree with both of you.

ITR is one of a kind and hard to duplicate and beat for the price.

But the frs/brz has a decent start package with a huge aftermarket fallowing that will surely make it that much better.

Biggest plus is the parking theft bit. If I had the coin and didn't need my truck I would get one for a daily driver for sure.

I still love my ITR over anything short of a 458 ferrari or lambo aventador lol

 

The E30 M3 and the AP1 S2000 I'd say are as fun and rewarding to drive. The E30 M3 I felt communicated better and had more predictively handling and steering. the S2000 was more like a gokart and very enjoyable with the top down on a sunny California Afternoon.

I've never driven the BRZ/FRS but it doesn't appear to have 'soul' to me.

 

Actually drive the AE86.

I have owned many many cars from 92 NSX, 11 X6, 12 Turbo S, 06 is250 rwd, 01 ITR, 94 FD3S, GC8 RSTI, WRSTI, and many other but the AE86 I have owned well over 10 of them and always go back.

Under powered but there are so many power plants you can put inside the car. In Japan there are many crazy motor swaps from 2jzgte and RB26.

The best power plant so far that I have experienced in the AE86 is the F20C. Best plant down right for the 86.

Mike

 

Sorry to see an original owner sell and move on. That being said, a couple other ITR owners I know have added BRZs to their stables and are pretty damn happy so far.

 

Honestly, and this isn't meant as a slam...but I see more women driving toyobarus than I do men. With the ITR, it was rare to see a lady in one of them. Heck, seeing an ITR was rare in its own right, even 10-15 years ago. I see those toyobarus all over the place now.

But, I have an '11 MX5 Touring parked next to my ITR so don't say I am making fun of chick cars! The MX5 is a blast to drive, but it is still a different experience than the ITR. Not better or worse, just different.

 

There is kind of that constant search for a car driver connected like the ITR that doesn't break the bank. I'd have a GT3RS if I could afford it because it is one of the last great true drivers cars so to say.

 

Have you driven the BRZ?

It doesn't sound like you have. It may be exactly what you're looking for, IMO. I literally knew it's what would replace the R by the 2nd turn. Even the BMW 1 series wasn't fun by comparison (FAST, but not FUN).

The steering in the BRZ is telepathic (better in that respect than my S2000), the road feel is great, and you feel like the car is part of you, not the other way around.

It's not exactly "like" the type-r (of course), but as for it being a driver's car, I don't see how you could say that it isn't a driver's car if you've driven one. You may not find it perfect for you of course.

Steve

 

I agree with R6Elmo.
E30 M3 is an amazing vehicle to own/drive.

 

Even coming from a GS-R it's very hard to find a modern car that is as engaging and fun on a daily basis. The list of cars that have the responsiveness and steering feel is very, very short.

 

BRZ is expensive for what you get. 30k for a loaded one puts you right at what a year or two old base c6 is selling for.

i can't imagine the BRZ holding a lot of resale in the long run either

dollar for dollar there are still a lot of sub 100k mile garaged s2000's out there which are a very good drives car bone stock. you also have great tires choices for the 2000

only drawback is the seats are theft prone and tops get slashed. oem hardtops are also extremely expensive...and of course theft prone for just this reason

another thought is to buy an elise. you're talking BRZ money for a used one and i don't think any of the mentioned cars including the itr will touch an elise for driver experience and feedback

15k mile 2005 elise for 33k and you could probably negotiate that to 30k which is what a loaded BRZ will cost you http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-...t_14325wt_1165

also would bet on that lotus having more resale in 5 years than a brz

 

Resale? He's talking about a fun car. ITR owners are so stuck in their ways. I love my ITR and it's a difficult overall package to replace. But the thought that it has an absoutely unmatchable driving dynamic is very narrow minded. Its like there HAS to be some fabricated reason why the ITR is better.

It's not like the OP was slamming ITRs. The BRZ/FRS is an awesome car at the right price, with the right mindset, at the right time. But there HAS to be something wrong with it? You guys sound threatened.

Muted suspension/steering/chassis/brake feel was the same thing ITR owners were saying about S2000s a while back. That was easily proven to be a bunch of BS as soon as someone un-biased actually drove a S2000.

ITRs are great cars. But better/as good stuff has come out since. Nothing will be the same as an ITR. But that doesn't mean it's worse than an ITR.

 

I feel like I'm almost forcing myself to try and find something that is at the same level as an ITR. I've been toying around the idea of selling her and picking up an AP2 S2000. Whether that's a move in a forward direction or not I haven't decided. The FRS and BRZ is a great car but seriously lacks performance to even an AP1 S2000 and mod for mod the Honda still comes out way ahead. I thought about E30 BMW's but I can't stand the styling.

 

I drove a BRZ for 1/8th of a mile around a parking lot and I have no reason not to see how it could be a suitable replacement for those that had an obsession for what the ITR is. I was extremely impressed.

 

I'm not surprised. It's a great bang for the buck. Even though the suspension design is "sub-optimal" front struts, it still does an amazing job even in stock format. Turn in is tremendous... and then with even simple, lowering springs and wheels/tires it is crazy good/accurate. I hopped out of a BRZ with springs/wheels/tires and into my ITR on DA Moton's (850/500 rates) and felt like it had sluggish turn-in so I call BS on the fanboi's who say things about the twins like "muted" and "isn't sorted".

On the engine: is it perfect? Nope. I prefer the top end rush of my ITR. I don't dislike the noises the twins make in stock trim and, IMO, they sound better with a freer flowing muffler/rear section but fundamentally the engine is fine. Especially at the price point that these are delivered at. Speaking of price, the FRS is under $25k and the BRZ isn't much more. Comparing a "fully loaded" model to the ITR is silly... the ITR doesn't have navigation, cruise, HID's, etc, etc. Comparing a new car to a depreciated/used car is also silly. One has a warrantee and is a new, known quantity. Also, most of the direct competition that's being discussed are 2 seaters. For a bunch of people this is a deal killer. Let's also not forget body size differences and "who" can fit in "what" car comfortably. I'm over 6' tall and average build. The ITR fits me pretty darn good. Not perfect but good. The Cayman and Vette also fit me just fine. The S2000 doesn't fit me well. I sit too high in the car and dislike the lack of tilt wheel. I'm also not a fan of convertibles. Awesome engine and I'd love to have something with a similar power band in the Twins... maybe the STi version will bring this? Or maybe the aftermarket...



Is everyone familiar with this recent dyno chart? Nameless equal length header, high flow cat, exhaust, and 92 octane ECU tune. The numbers are, apparently, legit and the header is an amazing piece of work (super long tube design that wraps up into the front of the engine bay and then back down).

I love my ITR (this is my 2nd) and I really like Honda's (I've owned more than I can count and built/raced 2 ITA Honda's as well as autocrossed other Honda's) *BUT* if I was willing to stomach a car payment again, the Twins would be the only ones I'd look at. The only other cars on my radar would be a Cayman/911 and they're a ton more $$.

Christian, an honest fanboi.

 

C6 Z06 doe... only $30k used. Yeah you have interior that looks like it came out of a Cavalier, but put that thing on some R compounds and you're going to need fixed buckets to hold on to ya butts!

 

$30k buys a decent condition C6 Z06? You sure about that? I did an autotrader search and turned up one nationwide and it was a rebuilt title car. I'm not saying there aren't good, used options out there at the $25-30k price point (there are) but they aren't nearly as practical as a 4 seater...

 

Yeah they have 60,000 miles but who cares because replacement parts are literally dirt cheap on the Z06. I could rebuild a totaled Z06 cheaper than I could a 5th or 6th gen Civic. The motor is solid and aside from the dry sump the design and parts have been around for decades. It sells itself once you get over the horrible interior. Once the C7's flood the market I predict a nice decrease in C6 prices. It's really a hard car to beat unless you're spending $150k+ on a car.

 

Or just go for an E46 M3, the last I6 Silky-monster.
With right setup, it have potential to provide all the fun you can have on the roads.

O and it is dirt cheap to buy (but not to maintain, unfortunately)

 

Toyobaru = major hype. I just don't get it. Sure, it is a good package, but it is no better than the current gen MX5 that came out in '06. And suspension-wise, it is inferior to the Mazda. Motors are a wash and the MX5 is actually lighter and more compact. This is (an example of) my beef as folks are getting taken in with something that is new but far from being superior or unique in some way (other than having a fixed-roof).

But, we are comparing to the ITR. Of course some things are going to be slightly better than a car designed in '95--but from a performance standpoint, the BRZ is not a superior replacement. Equal maybe, but the driving dynamics are different...for better or worse.

I guess if you have to have something 100% brand new that reminds you of an ITR, the BRZ may not be bad. It's different though, just as the MX-5 is just as the Corvette is, etc. Point being, there is not a FF car that duplicates what the ITR did, either in the past or currently. While the BRZ is fun, it isnt the only ballgame in town and certainly not the only car that is a suitable replacement...just one of the many and its qualities don't necessarily rank it above any of the others (at this point in time).

 

the original thread of this car is really about what's "fun". And i think what's fun to one person isn't the same to the next person. Fast lap times and crazy Gs in corners isn't what equates fun, but to me what's fun is what makes you feel like you are weaved in with a car and what it's doing.

I've owned a C6 Z06 modded and it's simply not fun on the street. It's just way way too much performance and to be taking the car to it's limits takes me beyond my own limits.

Cars like the ITR, BRZ, E30 M3 etc I feel I can take to the cars limits and yet be comfortable within my own...

In short - outside my limits is not equal to fun.

 

Not to belabor the point but the Twins have something very, very important that the Miata doesn't. A back fuggin' seat. :p Super important to folks with kids and/or are going to be using it as their only car. The MX5 definitely has a better suspension, is lighter, and, dare I say, more "elemental". It's a great car but to me it doesn't as the same visual presence that the Twins have, it's a convertible, and has less storage space while not being any cheaper to purchase/own.

Agreed that the dynamics are "different" and agreed that there isn't another FWD car on the market that got so much right. I'd say that the MazdaSpeed Protege was pretty close but ultimately not as engaging or balanced.

The point of the original post, from what I see, was to mention that the Twins may be an option for folks that want/need the additional safety features of a newer car. Or are maybe tired of driving theft bait. Or need to take work calls on the road and not have it be painfully obvious that you're in a (loud) car. Or want something roughly equivalent but RWD. Or like Flat-4 engines. Different stokes, different folks.

 

Would you really want to put your kids in the back of a BRZ? Come on now...we all know that seat is there only for insurance purposes. Just like Mazda did with the RX-8.

If you have kids and need a daily, a toyobaru is one of the poorest choices you can currently make.

We're comparing impractical weekend cars, and with that the toyobaru definitely has competition in that market. I know folks have 5-minute memories it seems and the toyobaru is the latest, so that's why the hype I guess. Same thing happens currently with the 'newest' FWD cars being the "best handling ever". I know the last ITR is over 10 years old now, but no one has yet to figure out how to make a FF car with more potential.