Well I'm not sure if this is good, I'm sure it cant be.

I bought this turbo used from B&RFittings (Brian) in the summer. He said it was used for 2 dyno sessions...looked brand new.

I have driven all summer with the turbo and never seen this before.

I pulled my car in on the weekend (Sunday) for an oil change and check up. I had Rotella 15w40 in it with about 1000km on it. Its getting cold up here in Canada now (5degC in mornings) so I swapped it out for fresh syntec 5w50 for better cold start performance.

I noticed this oil during the oil change, but I cleaned it up and have been watching it. Well it's back and I have driven about 600km since I cleaned up on Sunday.

It seems a bit worse worse this time..It is VERY BLACK and my oil is still very clean so I am unsure what I am really looking at.

It seems like a mixture of carbon/suit and oil.



Its a PTE5857 journal bearing top mount, with a 3an feed and 0.065 restrictor (I'm 90% pretty sure) and a -10an drain which is pretty straight down to the pan.

In the past 600km I have only boosted maybe 3-4 times up to full 12psi.
I only run a turbo screen with no filter.

Is my turbo seal gone or ready to go? There is no in and out shaft play and up/down is normal.
Will I hurt anything if I keep driving like this?

Could this be because of the cold weather, and the oil is thicker and higher pressure on startup and creeping past the seals?? This is my daily driver in the spring/summer/fall..

THANKS!

 

Is there any oil inside the intercooler /piping? If so is there much? Are you seeing any smoke on decell (engine under vacuum ) ?

If non of these are existent then I wouldn't be concerned. I think it's pretty normal to have a slight amount of oil there.

 

Put a air filter on it to ASAP. That is unless you are prepared to happily waist money on a new turbo.

 

That looks like a decent amount of oil. Could be the seal or it could just be the cold weather. Ive had this happen on my old turbo. Maybe Shodan could explain if cold temperatures affect the seals?

 

This happens to my godspeed ebay turbo and has happened since day one. Ive never seen the actual fins covered in oil though, always just on the lip of the inlet just like yours.

 

No. Temps don't affect sealing rings. Remember, they are not some grommet made of rubber that is effected by cold weather.

Any 90 degree fittings on the return line anywhere? If not, looks to me that you need to check your IC piping. If oil is there, that means too much crank case pressure.

That turbo was fine for a nice time. Something else is going on. Even before "seals" could be an issue yet

 

Thanks for the responses guys.

I had my hot side IC piping off a few weeks ago, and it wasn't soaked in oil, but there was a tinge of color from oil on the inside of the pipe..i wiped it clean very easily and figured this was normal?

My return has a 45deg coming right off the turbo, and then it goes to a 90deg welded onto the top of the pan. Here is a pic of it going into the pan.


To be honest, my oil is a little over the "full" mark on the dipstick right now, and that could be putting extra restriction on my return line...although I do normally run it a little fuller than normal and never had this issue all summer.

As far as crankcase venting goes, I have 2 vents off the valve cover feeding to the stock black box on the back of the engine, with an additional vent coming from a B20 plug in the back of the block. Then there is a 2" hole cut into the black box with a filter open to atmosphere. (Its a custom drainback system I made that is all hidden...never had a problem with it before)

I drove roughly 3000km with the turbo this summer with this setup and haven't seen this oil before until this past week...and it has been cold lately that's why I asked.

Tonight I am going to do:

-Check my IC hot side pipe again and look into the intercooler.
-Clean the compressor housing VERY well to ensure this wasn't just leftover oil from the Rotella being too thick.
-Drain a bit of oil and bring it back to stock level.
-Inspect my crankcase venting system and ensure it hasn't changed (longshot)

Any more help is always welcome. I'm worried and might pull the car off the road tomorrow for winter if needed....

 

That return is wrong. You can not have a 90 angle anywhere on it.

 

Just had the same problem and we blew compressed air up into the drain to make sure it wasn't clogged and we haven't seen any oil since

 

Exactly. Compressed air doesn't address the issue of proper drain back. The 90 degree fitting on the pan is definitely causing an oil back up in this case.

Having a little too much oil in the pan only effects the drain because of the way it is used. Change that portion, and you won't have that problem , even with slightly higher levels of oil

 

^I will do that over the winter for sure. Thanks for the advice, you sure do seem to be the turbo master around these parts

So tonight I pulled the turbo off, and removed the comp housing and soaked it in hot water with sunlight soap. Scrubbed it and blew it clean with compressed air.

I must say, there was very little oil anywhere.
---There was NO oil in the exhaust side at all.
---In my hot side IC pipe there was a very thin film of oil barely enough to feel with your fingers when rubbing, but just enough to darken the color of the aluminum.
---In the compressor housing itself there was very little oil also, a similar film as mentioned above.
---The compressor wheel had a very very light film of dark oil, barely noticeable.
---I checked my return and it seems to be fine (for kinks at least - it needs to be changed as noted)
---I drained about 1L of oil from the sump tonight so hopefully this was the only issue restriction on my return line.

So everything is clean it is just a matter of time now. Although I think I might have installed my hot side IC pipe wrong as the car is not spooling up as quick (or it seems).. I will check it again tomorrow!

I have to drive about 100km round trip tomorrow...will be a good initial test.

Ill keep ya posted, thanks guys!

EDIT - I measured my restrictor...its a 60thou 0.060" (Brian supplied it to me when I bought the turbo from him)

 

restrictor is just fine. You need to change that return fitting before you drive that car anywhere, or your cleaning will be for nothing.

 

^exactly
and if you keep driving it with the return fitting like that, eventually a seal will fail.... then fixing the return line has no point

 

Where in canada are ya bud? Nice setup

I definetely would not have done all that work just to put it back together and keep driving it though. The oil return is a pretty easy fix

 

I'm located an hour east from Toronto.

You guys are right, the return is not ideal...however I never seemed to have this problem until I started running my oil over the "full" mark on the dipstick. Last night I drained it to just below the full mark and I ended up driving 200km today and no oil I can see anywhere.

But no worries, the car will be coming off the road in less than 100km for the winter and I will fab up a new return line...likely going to buy a new pan and start fresh (its got a small dent that pisses me off anyways).

Time to start tinkering with my snowmobile soon Let it snow!

**I will update this sometime this week, or if anything comes up, but I think (and hope) we nailed it with the return line and too much oil. Thanks!

 

Good luck, don't forget to post a few pictures up from different angles

 

I am not sure what all this myth BS is about with no 90* fittings in the drain line whatsoever. People tend to forget things like return length, restrictor size, drain line size, pan oil level while running, crankcase pressure, ect. ALL factor into being able to use a 90* fitting or not. The ideal setups always use a 45* fitting but when you watch fluid pouring out of each (or actually take measurements) you will see the AN bung is the biggest slowdown/restriction. Depending on the setup, a 90* bend (on the pan end ONLY) can be acceptable if the system allows it.

People call BS on me all the time on a LOT of stuff, but sorry kids, I am not going to reprove things we found out the hard way and have done testing on decades ago. The Honda "scene" has been around since the 80's back before computers and digital cameras were around. None of it was "captured" due to technology lacking the proper tools. Now everything is expected to be available like people have some sort of rights to the information.

 

^^ someone **** in your cornflakes?

 

Almost every day somebody asks me this. If you don't like it, then block me and you will never have to read a thing I post again. I am just not as sensitive as you kids today. I don't cater to your thin skin and refuse to cut up your hot dogs into 4 pieces per slice. Choke on that boy! It builds character, or you die, either way something is going to happen.

 

I really don't see how that 90 is going to backup oil in the turbo. Is the idea that oil cannot turn and flow into the pan? Over the years I have made many oil returns with 90's in them due to space constraints and didn't have issues. There are plenty of factory turbo cars that have this also. I agree with N3va... there's a lot of factors, but I don't think it should be a rule to never have a 90.

 

As one that is at least closer to your age demographic, I'll be happy to answer this. I have found over the years at Honeywell that yes, the design of the entire oiling system is key in determining whether or not the use of a 90 degree fitting is warranted or not. But you have to account for the fact that MANY of these systems that are fabricated from something that was at one time NA are using gravity as the qualifying factor for these systems. Some retrofitted electric pumps, while others used fittings from a pan that wasn't at an improper placement. However, even the engineers from the 80s (that recently retired from the division I was in) had advised us to use care when it came to the proper oiling of these cartridges. One of the factors that they stated was whenever possible its best never to use sharp turns when it comes to the oiling return system. That doesn't mean it could never be done, but that it was best not to. In honda world, based upon the location of the oil pans and the fact that the oil pumps are mechanical in use and design, I still stand by the safest margin of usability; not to use 90* fittings on these gravity-drained systems. Time and time again has shown on this forum and others, that over 60% of the problems that have been associated with a "bad turbo" has narrowed itself down to the oil draining system. Even threads as recent as 2 days ago has shown that once the oil return system has been properly revamped, the symptoms are eliminated and the turbo is saved.

How many calls and PMs have I received from this issue? Literally hundreds. All because the wrong routing and equipment were used. Would I say the same for an STS system on a SS Camaro? No, of course not. But on THIS forum with THIS particular platform, I can tell without a shadow of a doubt, that Oil return systems should NOT use 90* fittings for optimal results.

 

I understand, and can agree about the soft-shelled, ebay-savvy, wet-behind-the-ears generation of cry babies. But I'd rather help light a candle, than curse their darkness, unless they just aren't willing, in which case, good luck to 'em..

But even you have to consider the possibility that this forum was made for everyone, thick or thin-skinned. I think that you have a LOT to offer this forum from your experience alone.. but your message will continue to fall on deaf ears if you don't learn how to at least communicate in a manner that is unambiguous, or at the very least much less abrasive than what you're giving now.. There are ways to still be blunt, effective and to-the-point without acting like an a$$ more often than not.

I like your push for those to be thicker skinned, but if you push others away so fast that they can't understand your message, what's the point of even attempting to share that knowledge? why post at all? Better to hide in your castle and keep the experience to yourself that way..

I'm just sayin'

 

Hence why I said the ideal setups always use a 45* fitting...

Raising the moate bridge as we speak!

Brother, I absolutely LOVE your tenacity! You are probably one of the few people I "respect" on this forum. I am NEVER talking in a bad way to you, and if I ever do, you will know it... don't worry about that!

Haha, as most of these forums I frequent I am a floater. I hang out in certain sections for a while, get bored and move to a different one. I was in the 88-91 Civic/CRX section, then All Motor, now FI again... I am getting bored with everything. I may eventually post a single build thread (even though I have 5 "built" Hondas) on not the best one, but the most unusual and bow out. Normally I only get really involved in the off season, but been building engines way too good this season haha! Oh well, somebody ban me already...

 

mac, you stole my gif lol

 

Good info posted above.

I agree with TheShodan that a 90 deg is never ideal. Even I knew this when I did it. However I figured with my exact setup, I would have enough gravity flow to compensate for it...which it seem I do, unless I run my oil level too high. (so far at least!)...and it was a late night and I wanted something simple and lazy lets be honest here

I am not as experienced as the guys above with turbos, but being a mechanical engineer I can share some information....I have studied quite in depth regarding fluid flow of all types. To sum it up very quickly, a 90deg bend causes significant fluid friction and velocity slow down of the fluid, and this causes immense back-pressure and buildup upstream. It is especially worse when you have a slow moving low pressure system, like the foamy oil coming out of your turbo. I will leave the engineering info there before I get carried away..

However N3va3vaSatisfi3d makes a valid point. Why make a complicated return just so you do not have to use a 90deg fitting...when (for example) you can just use 1 size larger diameter hose/fittings and increase the flow-rate exponentially. If you do the math you will see that even 1 size bigger with a 90deg return outflows the size smaller w/o a 90deg. Its simple. And yes the length of hose, angle of hose, etc are all factors to consider too.

I agree the biggest diametrical restriction in the return line is at the AN bungs, and this is why I machined mine larger before I welded it to the pan. It may be weaker now due to thinner wall thickness, but it is a very low pressure line and really only needs to seal (which it still does).

But hey, why make a shitty return and regret it later down the road like me? Everyone I have talked always says GO BIG on your return and eliminate bends (for reasons above). I am just happy my turbo seals seem ok and it is a simple cheap fix! Thanks guys