I have a 94 hatch. I got to set it up for the first time since I acquired it and it wasnt bad. It has a fair amount of turn-in and grip, but everything can be better, right?

Looking to see what other people run, if they've had success or distress. Here's what I came out with:


FRONT:
Toe - .020" in / side
Camber - -1.9*
Caster - .7*

REAR:
Toe - .060" in / side
Camber - -1.7-6*


D2's, 9kg/6kg rate, rubber pickup points, no sway bars, rear lower brace...

 

Not being a dedicated track car, running a higher spring rate and no sways gives the car different attributes. There's no need for heavy weight transfer in a fwd h22 car, so heavy springs balances the car more on the country roads. Sway bars actually made the car too stiff and push most of the time, so they arent needed. The rear brace isnt that important, but does help keep the geometry of the rear bars intact when cornering, allowing the subframe to remain stuff and not flex, transferring more force through the suspension and not the chassis. Ultimately, track cars need completely seem welded to maximize rigidity, bracing a street car 'simulates' this.

 

Yeah. This thread sure took off.

 

if only people wouldnt just lower their cars and roll... i never see properly aligned cars and it makes me sad

 

Excessive toe in, on both ends. Try 0° front and rear.

The same amount of weight will transfer no matter how much or little car body rolls, for the same cornering forces. Swaybars do no transfer weight, they just change how the transferred weight affects the chassis.

For the same roll rate (spring rate in roll, not pitch), the car with swaybars will have an overall softer spring rate, resulting in a smoother ride quality.

There is no reason for a street car to go without swaybars. A pure race car, on glass smooth track, could try and enjoy the weight reduction of removing them, but tracks are never that smooth.

I explained that poorly, but hopefully the point gets across.

 

What effect will you try to improve with more toe out? Just curious. Toe in on the front helps with road crown and tracking, despite caster setting (which really isnt changeable in this chassis anyways).


I think i understand what your saying. I do know that, not concerning pitch at the moment, that a good sway bar will allow the use for a softer spring for a better ride. I really probably should go down in rates and add bars, but I dont directly see the benefit other than the better ride. I disagree though that the same amount of weight will transfer, between a heavy rate spring car compared to a light spring car with bars. Remember, a sway bar is forcing the compressed side force onto the opposite side. I cant say for sure, but this probably has some effect on where the weight is going. On a DD setup, a heavy bar transfers your pot holes on the right side of the road through the whole car, instead of simply up through that side... kind of spouting two roads of thought at once, but its early! I'll be thinking about it as the day goes. Thanks man!

 

Let's start with the swaybar discussion.

The same weight will transfer. This is pure physics. If you corner at the same force, the same weight must transfer. F = ma. The only ways to reduce the weight transferred is to lower the car more, decrease the vehicle's weight, increase the track width, or turn slower (which we don't want to do).

You can direct where the weight goes though. This is why many FWD cars run a heavy rear spring rate bias. It isn't for roll control, it's to force the outside rear to do more work and help keeps the front tires stressed less.

In regards to toe, toe in does stabilize the car, but spirited driving and stability don't exactly go hand in hand. 0° toe reduces rolling resistance, which increases mileage (nice side benefit) and reduces tire wear (another benefit). 0° up front improves turn in response, making the car feel more lively. 0° rear toe decreases understeer, which is always an issue for our nose heavy FWD cars.

 

Well, i didnt expect to discuss this, but im down. I hear what your saying, but i counter with this; force indeed is mass x acceleration, so wouldnt more spring decrease the roll rate on a corner by decreasing the total mass actually applied to that corner if the acceleration aka cornering angle and speed remain the same? Picture a super light rate spring, allowing the car to heavily roll over, physically increasing the amount of mass applied to that wheel. Maybe we're on 2 different pages, im just trying to clearify my understanding of it.

I gotcha on the toe. I'd like to hear if anyone else likes their alignment setup and what it is...

 

Right now my civic is

Front
Camber -1.9* -1.8*
Toe is 0*
Caster 1.1 1.5

Rear.
Camber: -1.9* -2.0*
toe: 0.06* 0.05* (toe IN)


I like it. Handles very well for what it is. Tire wear is perfect which is my main thing as of now. My only problem is i'm dealing with a snap oversteer issue, which i doubt has anything to do with the alignment.

 

Nice. I'm surprised with zero front toe and that camber that it wears good... i like a little toe in front to help scrub those fronts evenly, but who knows!

That is pretty aggressive rear to help mechanical grip, i'd be interested to hear your setup and any changes that improve it. Thanks for sharing!

 

-2* is still pretty mild from what I have seen over the years.

The guy that aligned my car said it was fairly aggressive, but thought it would be a good starting point and move from there. I was lucky and ran into a 10+ Road racer at firestone!

As of right now in the front I have 650, a 26mm sway bar, with ES bushings in the UCA/LCA.
Rear is 550 with a 13mm bar and ES trailing arm bushings. Blox adjustables on all 4.
For the most part it's neutral.


I've been talking to a few Road racers and they are confident my snap oversteer is due in part to the poly TA bushings.

If every thing goes as planned, the suspension will be gone thru over the winter.

 

Less spring doesn't change the amount of weight transferred. Again, the same amount will always transfer for the same the cornering force. All it changes how the chassis reacts to it though.

The same increase in weight (not mass, which remains constant) will occur with the softer springs, they just compress more in the process of the transfer.

My alignment/suspension:
2000 GSR
-2° front camber
-1.4° rear camber
0° front and rear toe
400/400 lbs/in spring rates, stock front ARB, Comptech rear ARB set to stiffest setting

Car still suffers from understeer, but allows controllable oversteer on lift with reasonable tire pressures (rear pressures dropped for sweeper heavy auto-x courses).

And when I did run -4° of front camber and +4° of caster, the car was absolutely fantastic, other than the lack of available front suspension travel that configuration left it with (dented shock towers, constantly slamming UCAs).

 

My alignment and suspension are:
-2.2*front
-1.8*rear
.0"front toe
.1"rear toe in
450f/350r spring rates, stock GSR front sway bar, stock GSR rear sway bar on ASR brace, stock front control arms, Function7 rear lower and Skunk2 rear upper control arms.
Yokohama A048 205/50/15

 

Front: -2deg camber, 0 toe.
Rear: -1.5deg camber, 1/16 toe-in

I put around 25-28k miles/yr on the car, and occasional autocrosses.
The car is very neutral.

Minimal inner wear on the front tires as long as they are rotated every few months.

 

Pretty much exactly what I'm running except 0 toe in rear. Car feels totally normal and predictable under normal conditions. Confident and neutral on the rare occasions that I push it, but I can't say that I ever take it past 5-6/10ths (if that) on the street anyway.

I kind of think that setting things up on a street car with considerations at max weight transfer is somewhat irrelevant since that condition probably makes up for around 0.001% of the time the car will spend cornering. A stock alignment with a little extra camber should be all you need to keep it fun & still stay reasonable.