Well I originally posted this in clubrsx autox forum but I also wanted to get feedback from you guys and also if the clubrsx autoxer's (not all rsxes) have valid responses...

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread...500#post572500


"okay I was thinking about getting a strut tower bar before...until I spoke with very prominant autox guys...conemark aka Mark Valera (SCCA NYR guys know who he is) (instructor) saying that I shouldn't get one and that its a waste of money...

...I took that thought into consideration and asked why... he responded that the stock rubber bushings on the struts/chassis flex too much to have a strut bar matter enough with turn in response.

After thinking about it, it all sorta made sense.... not until you get urethane bushings for the struts or just go hardcore with pillowball mounts like on coilovers...

...he told me if anything, a front sway bar will help the RSX...

...now I know a lot of people buy stuff for their car...I've seen a lot of people get strut bars and this and that, but they don't race their car like we do....

now from an autocrosser to another... would you agree on this topic? I'm kinda convinced to save my money to get a pair of progress sways instead of wasting it on a strut tower bar(s)

it sorta made sense when he told me it would just flex more instead of provide increase turn in response....also Nein posted in the north east section where he said the spoon strut tower bar didn't do much at all compared to the lower tie bar he got, and then with his sways it made a night/day difference...(since he's only on prokit spings..no urethane bushings or pillowball mounts)

so is everyone I see wasting their money on stuff they really don't need? or is my instructor (mark) talking gibberish..."

 

right now if you're on the stock suspension you won't notice a difference with or without a strut bar, but when you start running higher spring rates (300 and higher) I'd say that you'll notice a difference.

 

yeah I'd figured it'd make sense with the stock suspension that the strut tower bars don't do much at all...

...now anyone willing to help me out with the sway bar dilema??

 

Adding a front strut bar might increase a fwd tendencey to push, a lot of the fast crx's and hatch's I have seen do not run them becuase it sitffens the front a little and with thier springs/sway combination incrases's the push on the car.

 

i'm gonna have to disagree with that. level of effectiveness aside, a strut bar will not change a car's steady state handling balance. if it makes any change at all, it would increase grip by preventing the subframe from shifting and potentially loosing whatever alignment you had. ie, it wouldn't let the chassis flex and reduce camber or caster or whatever. the fact that you don't see them on most race cars is because the money spent on the strut bars is money that could be more effectively spent on things like tires, shocks, or engine improvements. and most racers will do everything in their power to reduce weight by even 5 ounces. the rest have roll cages, which does more for the car then any strut bar could ever hope for.

nate

 

k, thanks... how about the sways?? and the front sway bar dilema??

 

well, what class do you plan on running? if you are gonna run stock, a bigger front sway bar and some good shocks and R compounds will definetly help! if you're gonna do a Street Prepared class and plan on daily driving the car, I'd go ahead and put the front and rear sway bars, it'll help you tune the suspension without having to run ridiculously high spring rates....same goes if you're gonna run in Street Touring. but as a general rule of thumb, putting a larger front bar on a FWD car will only increase the amount of understeer

 

The reason that it will help the RSX and not the Integra is because the RSX has a MacPhearson Strut front suspension. The shock towers are a main flexing unit (as in they are pulled on laterally) unlike fully independent cars. The bar is in tension as the tower bends outward. However, this isn't really an issue as the flexing point is the subframe for your/our Integra.

There's a good website somewhere calculating the "effectiveness" on an E36 M3.

Edit:


[Modified by GSpeedR, 1:46 AM 10/15/2002]

 

Well...I felt it when I put it on my stock 92 Si.

In fact, other than the intake, it was the first thing I did.

It was noticeable enough that I'm not attributing it to the butt dyno placebo effect either.

 

see I can take stock in people saying they feel a difference when they add strut bars to stock suspension. I drive my car at the limit when I autoX and I can't really tell the effectiveness of mine (i have both front and rear), but I know they work because my car now creaks and groans when going over curbs and pulling into parking lots, and my car also does the "pissing dog" despite my relatively soft spring rates....I dunno, just my opinion

 

"a strut bar will not change a car's steady state handling balance. "

Then why put one on? If a strut bar does what it is supposed to do, as you said, it will give you more grip up front. Which could increase your tendency to push. I have seen them on a lot of race cars, just not a lot of crx's and hatch's.

 

"but I know they work because my car now creaks and groans when going over curbs and pulling into parking lots"

Actually, after I put them on the car and the car now creaks and groans a lot less than it did. My car would left the rear wheel with the stock suspension even without a rear sway bar, the strut tower bar has nothing to do with your car lifting the rear wheel, more than likely it is becasue you have increased you level of skill and your cornering speed and force have increased and you are picking the rear tire up due to that.

 

Uhhh...wanna rethink that statement?

More grip up front wouldn't increase the tendency to push.

 

Hmm yeah after thinking that out that probably not correct, howver I know that Several perople have taken there front strut tower bar off and the car has pushed less, so something is happening to casue that.

 

I hear the argument that you can "feel" it quite a bit. Back when we were bickering over that rear X-brace someone was proposing jacking the car up to test effectiveness.

I propose this... just because you can "feel" a difference, or know that it, in some way, increases chassis rigidity doesn't mean it does a thing once the car's on the road/track/course. Furthermore, it certainly doesn't mean that it does anything beneficial.

My experience (for what it's worth) tells me that adding a front strut tower bar decreases frontend flex under cornering. In my cars, this has lead to increased responsiveness on turn-in, but decreased overall front grip. I'm not saying this is fact... just my opinion based on what I've experienced. Given that, I would expect a rear bar to have a more beneficial effect on a FF car if there is any rear deflection to correct. I have not personally ever installed a rear bar though. I do run a Skunk2 front bar on my hatchback. It's always been on there and I've never driven the car without it. I'm honestly not sure exactly why I bought it other than I was buying Skunk parts and just added it to the list. I will eventually install a rear bar, but it's fairly far down my priority list.

I am aware that they're a significant part on a BMW. The stuts up front are a contributing factor, but don't forget that the car is RWD and that stiffening the front loosens the rear - exactly the opposite of us.

 

could be, but I'm nearly at the top of my learning curve. I'm not making big time gains like I used to when I first autoXed 3 years ago.....so I'd have to say that that is probably not it. i dunno, this debate could go on forever. i think in the the rear strut bar has made the most difference...b/c in the front you have the motor attached to the frame in between the shock towers, in the rear there is nothing connecting on side to the other...but what does my opinion matter, i'm just some hack autocrosser

 

"but what does my opinion matter, i'm just some hack autocrosser "

HACK!!!