As i was walking through the advanced group grid today before my afternoon session, i noticed that there were several cars with harnesses, some with race buckets as well... and running harness bars (!) or schroth harnesses bolted to the stock rear belt mounts. I was under the impression that NASA was not allowing this to happen? Maybe before each session goes out from grid in the morning the grid cheifs do a quick "tech" of the car to make sure that these things arent happening.... I did not say anything to the drivers of said cars, as we all know how these arguments go.

On a side note, as i was preparing my car for belts with my new roll bar, i bolted in, adjusted, re-bolted and double checked everything on thursday night, and checked again saturday morning. I realized at some point with the ordeal, that at some unexpected moment, i *may* need these things to save my life.

I do hope i wasnt in anyone's way too much over the weekend - moving into a group with highly skilled drivers in fast machines made me wish for more power/tire/brake/suspension (Or a honda, thanks George) for the first time since i started doing track events. I can count the number of cars i "rolled" on one hand... However it was awesome to follow the experienced drivers and observe the lines/exits/shift points and how many different styles that all seem to work pretty damn well.

Another great, safe weekend from NASA

RJ

 

You seemed to be moving quite well out there..

 

thanks! i know the car is slow, but it felt slower than it is this past weekend.... you were looking great also I think everyone in our group was driving very well all weekend long.

 

I had a student on mon/tues out at Summit that had some Schroth 4 points w/o a rollbar. I opted to wear the regular belt while he wore the 4 point. If there was a fixed seat, I wouldn't have gotten in.

Warren

 

My instructor was extremely pleased that I had a rollbar.

I feel for those instructors that teach in cars with mouse belts, though...that's gotta be frightening.

 

There are no NASA rules stating that you need a roll bar with a 4 -5 point harness.

However, I point out to people what their head would look like in a roll..... And why street belts are better when you don't have a roll bar.

I have seen people look at me like I was nuts...... but I guess they can't use their imaginations to put a visual in their head.

Lots of people from novice through advanced think they are driving race cars. Putting in safety equipment in the wrong order can have disastrous results.

The worst is that many people who use these harnesses use them on the street also - which in most states is illegal. And for the same reason. They are lethal without roll bars....

If an instructor feels comfortable in a car like that, then he will let the car pass tech.

 

I *love* instructing in cars with good safety equipment. If any of you HPDErs are out there, listen up. After an event or two, when you realize that you're the next Schumaker, just pull the trigger and get a rollbar and harnesses. Please. And please do it before running on R-compound tires.

I need to relate a quick related story...

A few weekends ago I was instructing at Roebling Road. BOTH my novice and int students had a rollbar, 5-points, street tires, and both were not interested in going full throttle down the straights. Perfect instructing experience. But, it was pretty hot that weekend. Novice student was a woman (very quick and smooth) in a ZO6 ... and we ran the whole weekend with the A/C on. God bless 405 HP.

 

Thanks for chiming in on the official rules, Elyse.

Would you consider having someone at NASA write up a "Dos and donts" informational page for HPDE students? Not _rules_ per se, but safety advice, how to prep your car, work on the driver before working on the car, etc? It could be part of a whole preparation curriculum so students can reduce the "drinking from a fire hose" syndrome that develops at those first few events

PS - Fantastic weekend that NASA put on! Keep trying those changes and new processes to eliminate the glitches!

 

That would be a very useful thing to have. Especially if you had copies on-hand at events to pass to new drivers. I lucked out and had a co-worker who was already an SCCA club racer (and the plethora of SRX-7 drivers that instruct for BSR), so I had a pretty painless start to driving. Without that help, I would have been in WAY over my head.

Yes, a very nice weekend. NASA impresses me again. See ya'll at Summit Point in a few weeks.

PS - Dan Unkefer is great - make sure you keep him around. The discussions with the Advanced groups were very useful.


[Modified by Crack Monkey, 8:07 AM 10/14/2002]

 

OK, so I will start brainstroming ideas right now. We need to find someone who is willing to write this thing. It should be written from a "role model" or "peer" perspective so it actually sounds helpful and somewhat entertaining. If Karl Shultz wasn't busy with H-C, he would be perfect to write it (the guy has a gift with written words -- he's been doing THSCC auto-x reports for 2 years).

Post it up on NASA and/or other HPDE sites, and link to it often when all these topics come up. I would suggest that whomever ends up writing it, send it around to NASA instructors for review and revision.

How to have a great HPDE weekend
---------------------------------------
by ??????????

topics for consideration:

safety
- types of rollover protection
- types of driver restraints
- when is the right time to add them, in what order
- don't drive 10/10ths unless the car will give its life for you
- race tires make you go faster (higher risk) and take away the safety margin (higher risk)

car prep
- take all the stuff out of the car!
- "improvements" often make things worse
- drive your first year of HPDEs in a stock vehicle on street tires
- tire pressure

preparing for the weekend
- "If you haven't started drinking yet, start drinking now" (water )
- list o' needed stuff to bring (often discussed)
- list o' nice stuff to bring
- sleep / drugs / alcohol

setting goals and objectives
- why are you here?
- understand yourself
- understand what HPDE is

OK, I gotta go back to work.

 

I have a Track Guide if anyone wants to swipe ideas from it... http://www.soloracer.com/trackguide.html

 

"I know I have always felt that the rule existed, based on conversations with my first several instructors."

I know of one instructor who runs 4 point harness and no role bar, when I road with him I used the standard seat belt.

 

Not that I'm favoring the idea of harness without a roll bar/cage. I personally is running stock belt simply because I don't have a roll bar. I cherish my head.

But I think some of those almost race ready cars right out of the factory like Viper GTS-R, Porsche 993 Turbo S, 996 GT3, Lotus Elise, etc., they came with harness without any rollover protection?

 

I can't speak for all of those cars, but I remember reading that the 996 GT3 had a roll cage incorporated into the body of the car. I believe the Elise does as well, but I'm not certain....

Matt (glad my student had a roll bar in his convertable)

 

My instructor had a 4pt harness without a roll bar in his car. When I went out with him for a spin, he gave me the option of using the harness or just the factory seatbelt.




[Modified by 6ghatch, 12:13 PM 10/14/2002]

 

Hello George!

 

I agree that it is dumb, but making it a rule? I don't know about that. No matter how hard you try, you can't make a rule for every dumb move someone might make, and this might be taking a step over that line of futility.

However, a rule that protects the instructor without restricting the driver would be great. "No roll bar/cage, then the instructor must have factory belts available to him/her."

My 2 cents.

 

at CMP my instructor had a 318ti , NO rollbar , 4 points , and the harnesses were in the rear seat belt locations on R compounds.

I shouldnt have gotten in the car , I stopped looked in and asked if we could take some low speed laps because I wanted to see some landmarks and there was no need to go 10/10ths

I rode for two laps and requested he pit in , I did not feel safe at all and couldnt believe someone who was an instructor had this unsafe set-up in his car.

next time I wont get in the car........

 

I believe that is a dealer-installed option on the GT3

 

Jamie, this same guy was at VIR this past weekend. Along with several porsche 911 drivers in the instructor/advanced group with the oh-so-popular harness bars for these things. I was amazed that on the instructor level that these guys are going out there and hauling as much *** as they are (these were *not* civics/crx's) and they think that this is 'safe'. I would not have gotten in one of those cars if they were my instructor.

RJ

 

But you can minimize your risk and maximize your safety with a few basic precautions....

 

I think it is a cumulative effect of the constant ranting on this board to some degree that so many students and instructors from this camp feel harnesses sans rollover protection is unsafe. I feel strongly that those seemingly mean posts that are so emphatic of the inherrent risks have their merrits. I know that the same POV is not necessarily shared on several other race/de related forums (Rennlist from my memory for example).

I know that I would have not correlated being in a fixed position with danger in a rollover situation had it not been for Catch-22 at CMP a couple of years ago and I know after my baptism, I have made the same statements myself in hopes of converting others (as I have heard/seen a ton of others here do likewise).

Cool stuff!