Hey guys i know lots of people have posted about b16 head on gsr block and etc..
But i want to know if i get a b16 type r head the pr3-3 head and put skunk 2 stage 1 cams will that head add horsepower to my stock gsr b18c block, i do not want to change out pistons and make a poor man's type r. so im not worried about compression and that ive seen those articles. i just looking for horsepower and if that set up will get me some more whp.

 

leave the engine stock and save money for boost

seriously, NA is the expensive way to go slow

using a PRx head will lower your compression vs the p72 head, flow is basically identical between the two. waste of money in short.

the single runner manifold is worth a few whp over the stock gsr manifold. if you must do bolt ons that one is worthwhile

still, save for boost or a faster car to start with

if you're still hell bent on NA you will have to change the pistons. the 3.9cc dome nippon pistons are marketed as a usdm itr but are slightly taller domed. this would put you over 11:1 and probably under 11:5-1. with a ported p72 head, good header, single runner manifold and jun3 cams, 310cc injectors and a good tune you'll have 200whp

^ that build also costs as much as a proper turbo setup which will put your gsr at 280-350whp and not require 9500rpm

sustained high rpm is probably the single fastest way to kill an engine that otherwise is running well

 

Ok thanks for the info man so i got the stage 1 cams already and skun2 intake manifold should i just throw those cams in my gsr head to get the better outcome? than the Ctr head with those cams?

And will skunk2 stage 1 cams hurt stock gsr valve train since it does not have the dual valve springs.

 

can't do that without a tune. the manifold vacuum will change and the tune will be off. you need a chippable obd1 ecu and crome, hondata, neptune etc to install those parts and tune. you can get away with the manifold without tuning but not the cams.

personally i would sell those parts and save for boost

what you're doing is more trouble than its worth for a few whp

and yes those cams need itr springs at a minimum which isn't too expensive, you buy itr intake springs, switch your intakes to exhaust and it's run-able provided you tune for it.

 

I got a b18c block with a 98 pr3-3 head what ecu should I use. Car has elderbroc I take manafold , toda cam gears , 550cc injectors aem fuel rail, 60mm throttle body, custom header , Apexi exhaust, running on p28 ecu and not running right. Falls to 0rpm then back to idle on rev ups or when pulling out of gear to nutral , at steedy speed and throttle it hiccups. Burning oil at vtec. When you shift after hitting vtec small cloud of whitish smoke! Is this from running wrong ecu ease help

 

do a compression test. sounds like you have a major failure somewhere in the engine. does the car overheat at all? also that ecu can be correct but it must be tuned for the combo of parts you're running. if it's a stock p28 i'm amazed it even runs with 550 injectors

 

You should not be thinking about which head to buy, but what parts you need to rebuild your motor. You ruined your engine. Start over.

 

Umm no Youre wrong. A ctr head flows way better than the gsr head. It will lower compression .02 and that's not even noticeable, but will gain midrange that the gsr head doesnt have and top end power. The ctr head is a faster and consistent flowing head. So to the OP yes your idea will work. Just replace your pistons that are bad with Itr pistons use a 2 layer head gasket rmf header and port match your intake mani to the head with the gasket and dyno tune it you'llhave a good street motor. And also if you wanna go boost use the ctr head they flow excellent. They don't need to be ported. There is a good reason why Honda went with the pr3 head for the type r over the p72

 

I blew a valve on my 98 gsr before and found a cheap ctr head to replace it and it ran fine but only difference i noticed was vtec was more pronounced.

I think its only a good idea to swap a ctr head or b16 head only if you blew your gsr head and need a cheap replacement cause b16 heads are pretty readily available, then it would be worth a lil while to use a ctr head as to get another gsr head. Or if your building a motor from scratch then you can start with a ctr head. You wont feel much of a difference by putting on a ctr head on a stock gsr, maybe feel a difference when vtec engages other than that you will need to get a ecu and tune the motor with bolt ons to achieve more hp, its not gonna bump you a good 10hp just by using the ctr head.

And take it from us who have done the whole 9 yards with a n.a motor. I did so much spent sooo much on a n.a b series only to get 216hp on a dyna pack dyno. waist of time and money. save your money and if your head is good leave it alone and switch your plans to go boost if you want to feel some real power. A supercharger from jackson or a simple turbo kit on the stock motor will get you more than a n.a motor with decent bolt ons!

sell those cams cause you should of got the tuner 1 cams that are compatible with a stock b series valvetrain and sell the manifold and get a gready turbo kit and boost it and of course have it tuned. you will prolly like it way better than a n.a setup, 250whp is gonna be super fun! but its your money and if you want to spend allot to go n.a than go ahead its all experience it took me 3 n.a motors to finally say f n.a setups and went boost!

 

Lol@ "a ctr head flows way better than a gsr head" You are a moron.

No, it really doesn't flow a whole hell of a lot better. Have you ever put a stock p72 head on a flow bench and compared it with a stock pr3 head? Hell, even a pr3 itr head doesn't flow much better than a stock p72 head. Have you ever looked at the intake ports on a brand new itr head from the factory? The amount of port work done is almost non existent. All Yoshi did back at the factory was a little bit of de-burring.

Lets see, one of the many things the p72 head has going for it is its mid-range power because of the factory dual runner intake manifold. Its designed to have a smooth power band all the way through the rev range, not be **** every where other than above 6500rpm.

I don't even want to take the time to explain how stupid your comment about a ctr head flowing more consistently is completely wrong.

So, a ctr head will only drop the static compression ratio by two hundredths of a point? LOL. The combustion chamber volume on a pr3 head is 42.7cc's for each cylinder while a p72 is 41.6cc's per cylinder. You'll end up with about three tenths of a compression point difference. Negligible.

Btw, if your goal is to make power, portwork is mandatory on any head you use for an all motor build, and will only help on forced induction builds.

Ultimately your going to spend about $2000+ to gain 15whp or 20whp. If your goal is to go fast spend money on sticky tires, better brakes, and a good suspension setup. That will actually get you somewhere.

 

you are absolutely full of ****. endyn among others has posted flow charts of both heads all the way up to .500 lift. they are within 2-5cfm of each other the whole way up. the gsr head was likely designed because of it's unique intake manifold. the PR3x heads were on b16's way before the gsr. the pr3 head you could possibly argue is better suited to single runner manifolds but that's seriously splitting hairs

here's one of the actual flow charts comparing the two

 

Honda chose the Pr3 head for the type r for a reason. I've ran both heads before. Gsr have better low end tq but from bout 4000 up Pr3 pulls better and has a consistant pull. P72 takes a while to pull up top but does eventually pull hard maybe a lil harder than Pr3 depending on the health of the heads. Yes, this is first hand experience not some **** I found on the internet.the type r has about the same pull as the b16 just a harder pull across the entire powerband. The type r keeps pulling up top. The Pr3 is a faster flowing head. So with that being said with a p72 head you get more bottom end tq up until a certain point. Midrange and top end the b16(pr3) has it. HONDA CHOSE PR3 CASTING FOR A REASON AND THE P72 WAS ALREADY OUT AND HONDA STILL HAD A CHANCE TO USE HE GSR HEAD. BUT DIDN'T....both heads have there pro and cons

 

lol years back i was visiting Joe from alaniz and we were talking about this issue when i was asking about a custom ported head he actually showed me the print out of that sheet i still have it somewhere haha.
The port work on a ITR head is actually not that bad but its a improvement! heres pics of the port work from my new ITR head from the factory.

 

Yea and that small amount of porting made it a more efficient flowing head that the Pr3 already was. The part that is ported is all that is need to be ported. Plus the itr valvesare 13% lighter than stock b16 or gsr valves(intake valves) also the seat on the Itr head is cut at a 45 degree angle vs a 60 on b16 and gsr heads which helps at low to mid lift. The Itr head is great and sounds pretty wicked

 

where are your flow numbers to back all of this up? power numbers? please share.

 

Dont underestimate the flow characteristics of the untouched B-series cylinder head castings.

Your missing the big picture as this is pertaining to a person seeking advice for a stock GSR bottom end. I personally wouldnt touch it unless I agreed to spending the time and money nec to do a correct all-motor build.
Never would I sacrafice the GSR's unique combustion chamber quench for minute porting that isnt even close to be needed for stock block/slugs GSR.
expecially a USDM peice.
Plus camming up a motor that just took a small compression drop, and adding useless at the moment flow

These type R pulls and better mid/high/low range comparison of the cylinder heads is simply doiiii.
The completely different intake plenum designs in all, paired with the ECU tune from the factory, cam profiles, ect. is what established each motors power delivery characteristics. GSR head can acheive flow and make power with a single plenum just fine
Both heads will scream in the mod world.

 

Lol, you want to back any of this up with factual information? All we've done is give factual information to refute your opinions. If I were you, I would stop pretending to know something.

This bit of your *** dyno is getting old. The Pr3 heads are no better than the P72 heads. Flow charts prove it and dyno numbers prove it. The bit of the 45 degree seat angle vs the 60 degree seat angle is complete crap, stop talking out of your *** now. Honda used the three angle method on the gsr, itr, and ctr heads. 30 degrees at the top cut, 45 degrees at the seat angle, then 60 degrees at the throat cut.

Care to share about this oh so talked about reason by you about why honda chose to use the pr3 head over the p72 head? Aside from saying they did it for a reason.

 

Yea I understand everything. And yea both heads ported run hard. I've seen it over and over again. You do have valid points. Yes p72 head does have a good combustion chamber design to where it doesn't need as much timing to make power. But if the OP buys thectr/itr head it will lower compression slightly but still give him power due to better air flow. Seen it over and over again. I really didnt intend to turn this into a
Which is better head as everyone has their own opinion and liking. But stock for stock the Itr/ctr head will outflow both the p72 and b16 head.

 

where is your supporting evidence?

 

I'm backin this up with personal experience of my 10 years of messing with b series Hondas. My so called "butt dyno" might not be sufficient for you but for me it is. As the chart shows the b16 has better midrange and the p72 has better low up to midrange air flow capabilities. I've had a Itr head, 98 to be exact. So I know the seat angle and all of that. You can think I'm talking from my *** if you want I don't care but point blank period the type r head flows better than p72 and is a better head even if it lowers compression a little than the p72 head. Everyone should know that. And if the price is right, then the OP should get it. And obviously Honda thought that the Pr3 casting was better so that's why I stand behind my statement. I also stand behind type r parts because they are proven to perform while some may argue that the type r head is overrated. Honda knows what they are doing. That is all...

 

No your not understanding.....

Both heads flow great untouched castings with no port.

Ignition timing has nothing to do with the differences of the bowl designs.
Less ignition advance for the GSR..... WTF
A glance at all three OEM honda Timing maps from these applications would surely make poo out of that statement. Wouldnt matter anyways as any difference in timing tables would def not be from combustion design.

The user will NOT increase HP with this swap, at least not from flow as these castings are very giving with flow until modded to the sky, hence he is a long way from needing extra flow out of an already robust great flowing cylinder head.

No bodys mad at you, just dont want some other unfortunate soul to think the way you are about this subject (miss-information)

Same car, same stock USDM gsr, you take the R head 500-1200$
and I take my GSR head to the machine shop and shave it down plenty and a new headgasket 100-200$

Me for the win

 

And simply by this conversation alone it is apperant to more than myself that you dont know your @$$ from a whole in the ground about this subject as it has been covered time and time again.

 

Ok cool. Don't believe me. Idc my info is valid whether you believe it or not. And by the way Itr heads here dont cost 500 -1200 Idk what the hell Youre talking about. 500 is about as much as they go used. Sucks for anyone els that much cuz i Damn sure won't. And here I payed 120 for ported head job and my choice of multi angle valve job with valve stem seals and valves installed with a head mill. Zerg head gasket is 80.00 for a 84 mm. Try putting ctr pistons on a gsr head and ctr pistons on a Pr3 head and tell me the timing differences between the two.

 

your missing the forest for the tree

 

We might as well stop wasting our time with him. Lol

He refuses to provide information beyond his own opinion which is usless until he backs it up with factual information which he can't seem to do. He's been wrong and proven wrong in every post he's made. He will to continue to argue from his useless point regardless of how many times we prove him wrong. I think most people with any amount of common sense that see this thread in the future will realize that nothing he has said holds any water.

Btw, he is free to stand behind his opinion regardless of how wrong it is. Frankly, I can't get my head far enough up my *** to see things from his point of view though.