Figured I'd start this thread because there is no definitive end all thread for this.

How is this being compensated for or fixed? Personally I've retarded my ignition timing 1.75 per PSI in my hondata s300 boost table, while the issue is a wholeeeee lot better it still isn't totally fixed.

On my particular setup I have ARP's TQ'd to 85ft lbs and running a Cometic head gasket. The headlift was really bad in the beginning(my tuner is pathetic, going to Evan's real soon) then I spoke to Matt at speedfactory and he was the one who suggested the timing retard.

What are some of you guys doing about this? I think this is a really important thread to us D-series guys in protecting our investments.

 

What is youre Bore size; Are they OEM sleeves? You Should use a OEM Headgasket when you change it with some copper spray. If youre stuck on Cometic ( which i dont know why you would minus a overbore) then i wouldnt use copper spray.

How many times have youre Arp's been torqued. When tq'ing to 85ft/lbs what type of lubrication did you use?

Are you 100% the head and Block are completly flat. did you check with a straight edge? If its slightly off it could give you symptoms of headlift on higher boost.

 

stock bore size, stock sleeves as well. I ran with the cometic because it came with a gasket/seal package that Xenocron sells.

The ARP's have only been TQ'd once, upon the initial build following ARP's instructions and the lube packaged with the ARP's was used.

Both the block and head were milled/decked within spec.

When I spoke to speedfactory I was told that being the head had already lifted it might be impossible to resolve the issue without putting a new HG and getting retuned.

 

When you installed the head studs, did you torque them, loosen them, then retorque? or just torque them once and go?

 

i did them in stages, but i didn't back off any threads in between, i don't remember the exact specs i used but lets say 50ft, 65ft, then 85ft lb...like i said without backing them up at all.

haven't touched them since.

 

85ftlbs is really high if you used the moly lube supplied with the arp's....I did 85ft/lbs with reg SAE30. With the ARp moly lube that is pretty high. They could have actually streched at that level. ARP calls for 70 ft/lbs with the moly lube...i would go to 75 max


Also in steps you cant get close to youre max Tq...you should do like 25, then 50 then go right up to the final Tq. From 65-85 youre not going to get accurate Tq readings

Change the gasket with OEM and copper spray. Double check head/block for straightness and you should be fine. Make sure not to use to much oil on the threads in the block. If you do they wont bottom out in the block. They could eventaully wiggle free a little bit causing headlift

 

they do stretch. pull the VC and see if they are still at 85ft/lbs

 

What are the symptoms of headlift?

 

Over heating in boost, misfire, also eating coolant. Im sure their are more but thats what i know of. It blows the headgasket, among other things.

Here is a old but good thread on this. Lots of info Hope it helps.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/sohc-ninjas-do-we-all-have-overheating-head-lifting-issues-909091/

 

Owch. Sounds like a major issue. I'm only at 2lbs of boost since I just got mine running and I'm tuning myself. Guess I know what I have to look forward to as I turn the boost up a little.

 

Headlift on the Dseries is almost always a result of too much timing up top. Since the bores are so damn small there is considerably less surface area to absorb the load of combustion. Most people get head lift before they detonate, and some get it the other way around.

As for the ARP bolts, as far as I know, the new spec is 80ftlbs. For sure on the B/K ARPs. 85 really isn't overkill. And yes, of course the bolts stretch, they are supposed to. How else would a bolt create tension?

My suggestion, replace with OEM headgasket, turn your timing up top down about 3*, and retune with Evans later.

 

sounds good man, i'm going to get on this asap. can i reuse my studs or do i need a new set?

also I just wanted to throw it out there for other guys that are in the process of building a D series that it's suggested to have the block machined down about .020 or .0020(i forget the measurement now) lower than the sleeves in order to prevent the headlift as well.

 

How is it possible for the machine shop to machine down lower than the sleeve? I'm curious.

 

dude i spoke to from speedfactory said this is what they do. something to this affect anyway, it was a while ago when i spoke to them and I smoke a lot of pot.

 

It's called stepped decking, GE uses it on their sleeved motors. Usually only about .005 diff in height. Enough to crush the gasket on the sleeves a little harder.

 

yea the way it was explained to me is that even if the head does lift this compensates for it by the combustion chambers not seeing the lift only the outer most parts of the block/head. It's really hard to for me to put back in to words, one of those things that makes sense in my twisted mind.

 

holy 85ft/lbs.....

70ft/lbs max...arp says anything over that will add 0 more clamping force and will actually weaken and strech the arps

arp about a year or two cam out and change install from 3 step process to a two step process

old was something like this: 25-50-65
new process is like: 50 then 65

arp recomends 65ft/lbs but can be torqued to as high as 70ft/lbs...i have used mine like 3 times and i torqued them to like 67ft/lbs and they clamp just fine, no headlift....that with 22psi out of a hx35 on a 75mm bore y7, eagle/vitara combo w/ a built z6 head and OEM hg.....i have seen no updates from arp changing to a higher torque rating.

cometic hg's suck *****...read up they have horrible review on the d-series....oem, i have had great sucess with felpro mls and dont copper spray it, its completly unnessesary

 

Yea its called stepped deck(they machine deck flat, then drop machining bit down .003 and machine the outer edges of block without making contact with sleeves) This leaves the sleeves slightly higher up to make a better bite into the gasekt....most people i see who do it do .003 thats it. When i mentioned it to my machine shop they would not do it. They said this was something they wont do, that it was something they use to in the past but wont do it anymore. I ended up getting my sleeves oringed instead.

Arp calls for 70 ft/lbs with the moly lube. 80 ft/lbs is ok with SAE 30. 85ft/lbs is just too high with the moly lube, and boderline too much with motor oil .

I have used OEM with copper spray with success. Cometic ive had issues with, although i did use copper spray and had O-ringed sleeves. So to try and give them the benefit of doubt maybe that it why i had issues. Since cometic calls for a dry installation. However many have had issues with cometic, i dont hear of anyone having issues with OEM regardless or dry/copper spray install, or o-ringed vs. non-oringed.

 

Put an OEM headgasket on and have the ignition timing properly mapped on a dyno. Take the guess work out and have it tuned right.

 

With a good flat block and head, OEM head gasket and ARP head studs torqued correctly and a good tune head lift should not be much of a problem. The stock D series head bolts suck and are well known for stretching under as low as 8lbs of boost.

 

When you guys mention getting on a dyno and getting timing right to prevent head lift what are you meaning? Does this mean they have to much timing in? I assume causing pre-ignition or detonation and lifting the head? Just trying to understand.

 

a lot of good info gathered in here! thanx guys!

 

yeah my first turbo setup like 8 year ago was a stock z6 with t3 60 trim. it had about 140k miles but would lift the head above 10 psi. good thing it got stolen....

i dont think 80 is too much, i go to 80 on my b series engine and have no hg issues.
on the last d series i built (vitaras and eagles z6 about 3 years ago) i think i went to 75ftlbs with the moly. had it up to 18-19 lb boost or around 275ish whp, no hg issues.

from my personal experience and what ive read its important that the final step is the biggest jump, ie 25-50-80.

 

last time i hit the dyno my SOHC put down 499whp

i use 65ftlbs on my ARP head studs just like the instructions said.

and i tune the car so theres no detonation. and i dont have any head gasket problems at all!

so work on your tune and buy a new set of head studs and torque them to what ARP tells you to!

 

listen to danz

ninja edit.....lololol listen to welfarepc