Ok, this is a NASA-style build...which means, I have to work with what I have..pretty much nothing else..low budget.

Here's what we have to work with:

Running USDM H22a1 (but it has a slight rattle above 2k; leaky piston rings also?)
Skunk2 Intake/Throttle body
Mugen Exhaust
P72 ECU, chipped for Hondata s300
lightweight flywheel
stage 1 exedy clutch

JDM H22a (rod thrown out bottom)
(my old engine)

JDM H22a (rod thrown out bottom)
(at the local junkyard)


Here's my problem. I am living check-to-check like 99% of Americans. I can come up with some money here and there for misc gaskets, etc, but not $100's. If I had $100's I would just buy another motor.

I just put this engine in this car, and a buddy traded me the skunk2/hondata parts so I put them on too. I streettuned a decent daily-driver map and have been daily driving it for 300miles now (2 months later).

I was at the local dragstrip a couple weeks ago (playing with the hondata), and on my VERY FIRST full throttle launch, I ripped my crank-pully belt. That was the end of that night as soon as it started.

1 week later (with a new belt), I go and do a 70% throttle run. At the end of the run, I notice it has a rattle on the way back around.




Now it rattles at consistent points when I rev over 1500 and under light load driving. I don't think it's valve-lash, so I am thinking it is a spun bearing. Any other ideas?




NOW FOR THE MISSION:
-------------------------------

From these parts, I want to build the best motor possible. I still have the remaining gaskets from the full rebuild set when I did the top end seals and timing side.


i can't afford to have the head machined and ported/polished/whatever. I am hoping to do all work here in my shop.


So, without spending a ton of money:

I want to replace any spun bearings with new ones.
I want to replace the leaky piston rings (according to previous engine owner).
Are JDM rods/(anything in the block) compatible if I have a bent rod/anything??
Is it beneficial to use JDM h22a rods in the h22a1 block?
is it beneficial/compatible to use the JDM h22a cams/(anything else) in the h22a1 buildup??



Simply, I want to replace whatever's bad, put in everything JDM that will add any power, but I DO NOT want to separate the head from the block....

--TJ

 

This confuses me...Are you saying you don't want to swap heads/blocks, or are you saying you physically do not want to take the head off?

IMHO, you're best bet is to rebuild the motor you have with the most precise clearances you can achieve. Pay close attention to your ring gaps because that is a prime location for power lose/gain. Also, you can boost compression using the Type-S pistons if you can find a cheap set.

Oh, and tune tune tune...

 

To avoid cost, I don't want want to separate my running USDM block/head combo, because then I have to get it machined, right?

Of course, if I want to put in new piston rings, I am gonna have to take off the head right? In which case, why wouldn't I go ahead and use the JDM head and pistons/etc from my own blown motor and pull a replacement rod from the JDM junkyard engine, and then use those parts to rebuild on my USDM H22a1 block? compatible?

Or JDM pistons/rods/sleeves(??) into my USDM block, but with the USDM head from my running, rattling motor??

Please remember, the goal of this whole thread is to discuss compatability and the possible build combinations (while keeping costs down).

I have no idea how much the following costs, but I would prefer to avoid:
Sending anything out to a shop for porting/polishing/honing/whatever.
Having to buy new sleeves.
Having to buy ANY new parts unless they are not very costly and very worth it.

btw, I have already starting taking about my old JDM h22a to make sure I am comfortable working internally. It all seems so simple so farrr. Tomorrow afternoon I am taking the headbolts out of the blown motor and taking my first peek inside the block. I have already found a walkthrough on the net for taking out pistons...seems simple enough so far, except for having to take the head off to replace pistons, right?
(http://board.accordtuner.com/showthr...l-pistons-rods)

The good news is that I have my RB20DET pickup I can use for a daily until I learn how to rebuild a motor. (All I had to do was weld, cut, and wire to get the RB20DET mounted and running in a truck...lol)


Thanks,

--TJ

 

current projects:

 

current honda project:

 

First suggestion for you, download a Helm's manual for the 1992-1996 Prelude, it has all the info for the engine that you need. Obviously you will have to split the head and block to do rings or rods, but if it wasn't overheated you should be ok without machining.

The rods and crank should be the same between your engines, but the pistons are different, so keep the JDM or USDM pistons as a set.

On to your rattle, since you say you broke a belt, what belt was it? If it was the belt for the balancer shafts, and you put a belt on without aligning the shafts properly, that could cause some rattling or vibration issues. If not, you might be looking at a spun rod or main bearing, or something worse.

 

The rattle could just be something loose, exhaust, etc. Does it do it if you just rev it in place? i'd get it jacked up and have a look/jiggle for anything loose. I know I had a loose bracket where the downpipe connected to the block and it rattled bad. Anything that shifts when the engine revs up is a candidate.
GL
Mike

 

I have the full pdf FSM for my generation prelude. However, I don't think it had the JDM specs in it, and I can't find it .

So, in theory, I can tear off just the bottom end, inspect the rods and bearings (replace if necessary), and just slap it back together. If a rod is damaged, you said the jdm rods can be used for a direct replacement? :D

I really don't want to separate the head from the block right now due to time/cost/laziness. But whenever I get around to replacing the piston rings, I have to take all the bottom end apart again? If so, the lazier way is to do it all at once.

If I put in the JDM pistons, is there any chance the current rings on them can be good or do they HAVE to be replaced EVERY time? Can pistons still be good if the rod under them was thrown out the bottom? I would love to pull my 4 JDM pistons, mate them with my current USDM rods/etc, and continue piecing it back together. And that would give me the higher (JDM) compression?

--TJ

 

I have the full pdf FSM for my generation prelude. However, I don't think it had the JDM specs in it, and I can't find it .

So, in theory, I can tear off just the bottom end, inspect the rods and bearings (replace if necessary), and just slap it back together. If a rod is damaged, you said the jdm rods can be used for a direct replacement? :D

I really don't want to separate the head from the block right now due to time/cost/laziness. But whenever I get around to replacing the piston rings, I have to take all the bottom end apart again? If so, the lazier way is to do it all at once.

If I put in the JDM pistons, is there any chance the current rings on them can be good or do they HAVE to be replaced EVERY time? Can pistons still be good if the rod under them was thrown out the bottom? I would love to pull my 4 JDM pistons, mate them with my current USDM rods/etc, and continue piecing it back together. And that would give me the higher (JDM) compression?

--TJ

 

You definitely have to take the head apart from the block to get to the piston rings and to change the rods and pistons. You don't have to worry about machining the head unless your motor has seen the hot area of the temp gauge for long periods of time. They sell gasket sets on ebay for cheap if you are on a budget that's how i rebuilt mine for cheap came with every thing for the bottom end for 117 bucks. And as for h22 you just replace the piston rings no honing required so that saves you a couple 100 dollars.

 

this rattly h22a1 and the rod-thrown h22a NEVER overheated. Similar symptoms (1 year apart), but I kept driving the jdm h22a on my commute (after I noticed the rattling and power loss) just trying to make it 10 miles to work so I could park it there...instead the rattling got worse, I lost a ton of power (barely doing 45mph on the interstate), and eventually it threw the rod 5 minutes later.

Here's what I am considering:

h22a1 block (the one without the rod thrown obviously)

JDM h22a or USDM h22a1 head (I've read that they are the same internally) (and I assume neither is damaged??)

I have a new headgasket.

USDM h22a1 rods (assuming they are good, or use any good JDM rods to replace)

JDM H22a pistons with their original rings (assuming they are good; higher compression and I am pretty sure the USDM pistons need new rings)

JDM h22a or USDM h22a1 cams (I've read that they are the same)

obviously, I will have to replace any bad bearings (can my JDM bearings be re-used if I need to replace any in the USDM?)




soooo...my only cost so far is new bearings where needed. No machine shop necessary?

Will I need ANY special tools (like a "piston press") or is there a backyard way to do this/any other difficult unforseen task?

Do I NEEEED a ring compressor if I am using my jdm pistons with the rings already on them?

Are "sleeves" generally re-usable? I don't even fully understand what they are, but I assume I have 8 used sleeves so surely I have 4 good ones.

Anything else in my way? I will finish taking apart the rod-thrown JDM h22a no later than Thursday, March 1st, so hopefully I will have a complete list of parts that appear to be undamaged from the rod-throwing incident.

From there, I need to have a definite idea if its cheaper to build my motor from spare parts OR just save up and buy another used h22.

This is supposed to be my fun daily driver. I really don't like driving my truck every day. It's my pride and joy and I like to keep it safe at home unless I am going to cruise on the weekends or take it to the track. An idiot driver killed my 240sx on my way to work a couple years ago, and my 240's motor now sits in my Nissan Hardbody, and I don't want to risk it getting wrecked by another idiot too.

Thanks,

--TJ

 

The rattle is definitely coming from inside the block. I am absolutely going to check/adjust valve lash before I rebuild the whole bottom. I am just planning how to spend my time (whenever I get daytime to work on it).

My next off day, I am starting by check/setting valve lash & crank & listen for rattle. If rattling still, I am going to start pulling about the JDM h22a (rod-thrown) to inspect for potential parts.

--TJ

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpy_By5aIxM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=MtTXA9_a8sI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid...oP8&feature=iv

Watch this and the progressive videos. It will answer several of your questions concerning what all is needed to properly rebuild an engine. Not everything is absolutely necessary to have. By the looks of some of your projects, it seems like you would have most of the tools already needed.

Sleeves are cylindrical in shape and generally made of another material than the engine block. This is what your piston rings come in contact with. They are not re-usable, and in order to have a proper seal between your cylinder walls and rings you will need to hone them and properly gap your rings according to the cylinder bore - meaning it would be a good idea to purchase a new set of rings.

 

For piston rings, it isn't so much a good idea, as pretty much required to replace them. One of those 120 dollar kits from ebay will have all new rings, bearings, and gaskets, great for a budget build. Should get a cheap ring compressor, handy to have around.

So far as changing rods and pistons, either have a shop do it in a press, or build a jig to do it in a press if you have one. I have a feeling that if you toss a rod, the piston would be bad as well. Check the bore sizes on the block, and make sure that you dont mix A pistons in B holes and vice versa.

Oh and so far as the head, the should be identical, but the jdm cams are a tad more aggressive, so I would use them.

Thats about it for the basic questions, I would say read alot more on what people have done, and go from there.

 

My statement was said tongue-in-cheek...sorry. It is a definite must to replace them AND gap them properly.

 

Haha I figured so, just wanted to clarify before anyone gets the bright idea to try and re-use rings, especially from a damaged motor!

 

Ok...Getting close to my off day. Still planning for check valve lash first.

Here's what I understand (assuming it is NOT valve lash and I spend my day digging into my motor to find what is rattling):

1) It is most likely a spun/slipped bearing. (I will look for shavings if I proceed and drain my oil)

2) Except for the larger JDM pistons/rings, the USDM and JDM blocks are identical.

3) It would be nice to replace the supposedly leaky piston rings (and upgrade to JDM), but I do not have the money to buy new rings/sleeves right now.

4) Assuming I find the problem at the bottom, I am going to replace with good used bearings/whatever from the JDM if I can.

5) While the valve cover is off, I am atleast going to put in my JDM cams...only bc there are a few people who say it's slightly more aggressive. I don't mind putting another 20 minutes time into it if it might get me a little better performance.



So onto my questions:

I should be able to easily spot anything damaged/loose just by visually inspecting for crooked bearings/scratched up surfaces/anything obviously broken, right??

I can do the valve lash adjustment even if I take the cams off first right? Just seems like it might be a little less crowded and I am gonna swap them anyway...just thinking about making it easier.

and, of course, everyone has always said that a spun bearing will cause a rattling noise when revving......what exactly is rattling around????

--TJ

 

You don't upgrade to JDM piston rings. It's just piston rings. I'm not too familiar with who recommends what brand, but a little searching and there should be some threads already covering that topic. In addition, you can do a compression test on the cylinders to get a better estimate on your cylinder wall/piston ring situation.

The blocks are identical. The piston domes are what is different.

You can't buy oem sleeves per say. You can buy iron sleeves and get your block re-sleeved, but for what you are talking about, I don't believe I've ever seen or read of somebody re-sleeving with FRM oem sleeves. So, you'll have to work with what you got and you can hone them as long as the surface is not too marred up.

"Good used bearings" is sort of a contradictory statement - especially if you are swapping them out from two different engine blocks. Honda bearings come in different thicknesses and were chosen for that blocks particular measurements. That's not to say you might get lucky and the bearings from the other engine are the right size and in workable condition, but if you want reliability you need to use new oem bearings.

As far as visual inspection, that would be a good place to start, as well as looking for metal shavings in the oil.

I saw it represented as this for a spun bearing. The rod bearings are two half moon shapes like this (). When you have a spun bearing it looks like this: ((

This write-up is pretty informative for checking valve lash:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-civic-del-sol-1992-2000-1/tech-article-valve-lash-adjustment-1305086/

I might recommend searching through the forum here. There are several build threads and tech articles that answer several of your questions, provide pictures and in-depth know-how. Keep on searching, and good luck with the build.

 

OMG...I am such a ditz...I finally understand why it's called a SPUN bearing..omg lol...I have even been searching google images, and I have been looking at pics of ruined "spun bearings" but none were still assemble...I just thought it was meant that the bearing made contact and got damaged.

Ok, so now that I know that, what makes the "rattle" when I am revving (if I have a spun bearing)?? is that the sound of the crank turning inside the bottom of the rods but it now hits the "2nd-story" bearing because it is making the circle out-of-round??

Am I finally getting a clue?? lol

If anyone is ready to tell me to take it to a pro, please remember: I have already thrown a rod in my JDM...This one is on the same path unless I do something about it. It is cheaper to replace than to take in for a pro rebuild....and my goal is to be even cheaper than that. I just want to see if I can save this one and learn some mechanics in the process

Thanks!!

--TJ

 

Sounds like you are getting there on what may have happened inside the engine.

As opposed to risking anything trying to mix up used bearings, wonder about the rings etc, just buy a ring, gasket and bearing kit from an ebay vendor. King bearings will work fine, the rings should be Nippon, and they will work just fine, and the head gasket is fine for what you are doing, and it has lots of other small orings and gaskets, front and rear main seals etc. If the piston walls don't have scratchs that are big enough to catch a fingernail in, you don't have to worry about re-sleeving or honing it, FRM is nice in that respect.

This is a pretty decent undertaking though, and if it isn't all done right the motor will fail soon, so it may be easier to buy another cheap longblock and swap it in.


Here is a link to a kit that should work.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/93-96-2-2L-PR...item563e2b8b91

 

I will check the pricing again for new bearings, piston rings, and the related costs of doing piston rings (need a ring compressor and some kind of press??) . I am still wanting to use this as my chance to get some experience as long as it doesn't cost too much and as long as I might save this motor

--TJ

 

I checked out that link. Good value, I am sure. but it's $170 (shipped) that I don't wanna spend if I don't have to. I will make that decision after I get it torn down a little more and take a look at it.

If I do get this kit, and put in the JDM pistons (if good)...how much am I looking at spending on the piston-ring-compressor and how much to have the pistons "pressed" back into the block?

--TJ

 

Have you watched the videos??

Some of the questions you're asking don't make any sense, like pressing pistons into blocks. The videos will provide a wonderful amount of answers that we can't explain as well as seeing it in pictures.

It's not a matter of whether the seals/bearings are in good condition, it's a matter of if you re-use them the reliability/longevity/expectancy of the motor decreases exponentially. If time is money, then you'd be wasting more money having to rebuild the motor twice because you didn't do it correctly the first time.

If you do replace the rings you'll need a ring filer to gap them and a feeler gauge set. Also, you can pick up a CHEAP (quality is somewhat cheap as well) ring compressor at any parts store. A simple search on the internet will show many results. Please search my friend, the answers are there.

 

i will watch very soon now. I just got off work to start my "weekend" but I won't get to start my tinkering till tomorrow morning. I have all afternoon now to research before I start tomorrow.

--TJ

 

Cool. Are you on a 4 on 4 off?