Hey guys.

I have a 2001 Honda Prelude SE with an H22Z1 with 169,000 km.

On Sunday, I checked my oil (like I do every weekend....oh the joys of the H22 *sigh*) and I noticed it was down a little bit more oil than usual. Not thinking too much of it, I topped it up.

On Tuesday morning on the way to work, my oil pressure light started flashing. I was very close to a Honda dealership (another 3 minutes up the road) so I went straight there and told them the problem. 2 hours later, he calls my cell phone and says that there are oil seals behind the timing cover that are bad. Very bad. The engine had no oil in it AT ALL.

He read me a list of parts he was going to replace. Several seals, timing belt (because it was saturated with oil), water pump, valve cover gasket, etc.

He said "Before I start the work, I want your authorization to proceed."

I told him, "I've always thought that if you drive a Honda and you see your oil pressure light, its too late for your engine. If the engine is okay, then yes, proceed. If not, then do nothing to the car. I will pick it up and replace the engine myself."

He assured me everything was fine so I authorized it. Yesterday, the car was finally ready to be picked up. He called me and said "Your car is ready. By the way, have you noticed any sound from the engine under acceleration? It sounds like its pinging. You should replace your ignition components like the dizzy cap and rotor, etc. If its still pinging, you should really think about selling your vehicle."

Right there I should have known something was up...but I went to pick up the car. I paid the $1199.50 invoice and I drive it away, only to hear the bottom end is KNOCKING. No pinging here. Just straight knocking!

Furious, I called them back and they said they couldn't help because the service manager wasn't there and to go in tomorrow morning (which was this morning).

This morning, the manager looked, agreed with me, apologized profusely, and said he obviously had a problem in his shop that he was going to deal with. In the meantime, they hooked me up with a rental car free of charge (Mazda 6). But, even though I demanded my money back in full, I won't be sure until Monday, they said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So now, while I wait to get some or all of my money back, I need to find another engine. My question to you guys: Should I get an OBD2 H22A or an OBD2 H23A DOHC VTEC?

The H23A is much cheaper, and much rarer.

Will my OEM harness, ECU, transmission, and driveshafts work with the H23A?

Thanks in advance guys,
-Ando

 

Sounds like they are at least taking care of you, alot of places would tell you to pound sand on engine damage, as it wasn't their fault and the car is out of warranty.

They may have set rules on what they will do for replacement or rebuild, and if they replace it I doubt they will switch from an H22 to H23A, but you can always try. Should be a pretty straight up swap either way, using all the new parts they just put on the other engine, and swapping anything else as needed.

 

I think they're taking care of you.

As far as the questions about the engine:

The H23A feels a little more beefy. The H22A feels a little more fierce lol...if that makes sense.

To swap a H23A in, you just need to re-use your H22 driver's side upper mount. swap over your USDM (CDM, whatever) H22 intake manifold to make it simple. Buy a OBD2 USDM oil pump. Swap over your USDM distributor.

Swapping over your intake manifold, swapping over your USDM distributor, and buying a USDM oil pump is something you'd do on a JDM H22 swap also. So consider that all the same.

That's it. I used my old H22A4 SH ECU, axles, and all other mounts with absolutely no problems. The car is still running great today. People say that the H22 ECU is not the optimal tune for a H23A. How is it possible to know that? There aren't any manual H23A bluetops. It ran beautiflly for me. Made good power and didn't knock or ping.

Your stock harness plugs into everything also. Just like any other direct Honda swap.

The only real disadvantage to the H23A swap is that you have to watch your rev limiter. It's unclear what the motor can handle as far as revs. I figure 7500 is a safe bet for an 'all day, every day' situation.

 

I doubt they'll do the swap, I work at one and they never perform engine swaps using engines that didn't come in the car from the factory. They'll most likely want to look for a used H22a4 to put back in it. If they do the H23a then it's gonna cost you a lot of money because of the things they're going to have to swap and change to make it work.

If you've never done a full timing belt service before then the others above are right, they really don't owe you anything since you killed your own engine. They just took the approach anyone would have, change everything on the timing side and hope it runs ok.

 

Yes, I agree with you that they are not responsible for blowing the engine, or replacing the engine. But I am furious because he assured me everything was okay with the engine, when obviously, the bottom end is knocking. Why would I authorize $1200 worth of work on a blown engine? And why would he recommend $1200 worth of work on a blown engine? That is why I want my money back. I went to a Honda dealership because I trusted them and wanted it done right. They totally blew that. And the worst part is, on the invoice it says "Don't open your hood to strangers!"

I don't want them to do anything else but give me my money back. I would like to do the engine replacement myself.

 

Thanks man.

I think I will go to TigerJapanese and pick up an H23A then since they are only a 25 minute drive or so from my house. You are one of few members on this site whose opinion I trust. I bought an OBD1 D15B VTEC from these guys and it was a great engine. No problems at all. I can't afford to get it from hmotorsonline.

Hopefully I can sell the blue cover for $100-$250 since it is somewhat rare. I painted my black H22Z1 cover with VHT wrinkle red a few months back (which I documented in the "What have you done to your Prelude today" thread). It turned out really well so I will stick with it.

 

I guess I wasn't very clear in my original post....I am not mad at them that the engine is blown. Just that they made me pay $1200 for work that wasn't needed in the slightest. And again, I really don't want them to do a thing on the car at this point. I just want as much (or all) of my money back so I can put it into buying a new engine.


And for everyone who replied, I appreciate your time and opinions. Everything you guys said goes a long way.

I will update this thread tomorrow when Honda hopefully has an answer for me.

Thanks guys,
-Ando

 

The valve cover's rare? $250?!! Cot dang!! If it sells, LMK. I'd like to know what it's worth. I liked the blue, though.

IDK how much the motor is thru tigerjapanese, but I bought a buncha stuff from www.jdmenginescorp.com and it's been cheap ....but with H motors style quality stuff.

 

Id be very careful buying from tigerjapanese. Since you are close, I would thoroughly inspect your motor and load it yourself. This is what my engine looked like from TJ:

 

The thing is that they had no more of an idea that the engine was blown than you did, they didn't want to run it the way it was since if you had a sudden loss of oil and oil pressure then they could not run it until it was fixed. The same goes for when a timing belt snaps, you just gotta put a new t-belt on there and hope for the best, sometimes you get lucky and sometimes not. I'd be willing to wager your front balance seal pushed it's way out since it's common on H and F series engines, causing an instant loss of oil, seen it first hand.

If you would have cut the car off when the oil light came on rather than driving it your engine would more than likely be ok.

 

Yeah, there is no way for the technician to wave a magic wand and know the car is ok. They aren't gonna run a possibly hurt engine with no oil or a bad timing belt on it, they are going to get it to a safe point and then diagnose any other issues, which takes some time and parts in a situation like this. They should have been a bit more up front about that, but it is what it is.

 

While I do understand that the tech doesnt magically know if the bearings are bad, they should have either filled it with oil and ran it/listened to it.....or AT THE LEAST, told the OP that there's a good chance it's not ok and that there would be a chance that they're doing this work for nothing. The OP did tell them that he ran it for a while with the oil light flashing. On top of that, the car came to the shop with no oil in it. They should have assumed engine damage.

 

Usually a Honda technician isn't going to tell you that you're engine is done for unless it's extremely obvious (even if they've got a pretty good idea it's thrashed), just because it's better for the dealership if you're spending more money; I'm not saying all technicians are like this, I know plenty of respectable mechanics at dealership service centers. But like you said, most of the Honda's I've seen that have the pressure light on and turn up empty, are trashed. If you get your money back, I'd consider yourself extremely lucky, they don't give refunds very often. IMO technicians should be good enough to know when it's likely the motor is damaged, and should be honest enough to at least tell you there MIGHT be a problem, rather than just say "No it'll be totally fine". But the sad fact is that's just not the reality of today. Good luck, hope you get at least a partial refund.

 

Okay guys, I have news.

I went in today at lunch and the service manager was there. I told him the entire story, from start to finish. I told him I was willing to pay for a half an hour of labour, and 3-4 litres of oil. Because that's what it would take for a diagnosis of whether or not the engine was blown.

When I told him what the Honda tech told me on the phone (which was, "If you change the dizzy cap and rotor and the engine is still pinging, you might want to consider selling your vehicle"), and manager looked very displeased. He was embarrassed. It looked like he wanted to go back there and shoot the technician who told me that.Or fire him.

When you call their service line, it says "This call will be recorded for quality assurance." And before today, they seemed skeptical that what I was saying was the truth. But I think they must have pulled up the phone records and listened to the phone conversations themself. Because they are giving me a FULL REFUND!! Yes, FULL! They are also paying for my rental until tomorrow morning!

If I could remove the "BEWARE" part in front of my thread's subject, I would. Because these guys came through, and came through big time. They managed to turn an awful situation into one that works for both parties. I would hate to have had to go over their head to get what I want (for example, speaking with Honda of Canada, or sending a letter to the Toronto Star to have in the paper, or calling my credit card company to cancel the payment)

Thanks everyone for your input!

I will now be buying an OBD2 H23A DOHC VTEC, an oil pump, and a clutch kit.

I wouldn't mind hearing everyone's opinion on a clutch though. For a daily driven car, is it worth it to get a stage 1? Or will an OEM-spec clutch suit my needs?

 

Wow that looks bad. Makes me wonder how much of that is Tiger's fault, and how much is the shipping company's fault.

I went into the Tiger warehouse myself. They have some awful looking engines, I will admit. But I was able to hand-pick my D15B VTEC before...and I see no reason why I can't hand-pick my H23A

 

I used an exedy OEM replacement on my swap and I was very happy. I sold the car to a friend and he loves it too. If you want something more aggressive, the exedy stg.1 is a great choice. I just like light pedal pressure and smoothness and will sacrifice some clutch grip to get it (for a DD).

 

^This, get the OEM Excedy, no point in getting a heavy duty clutch on a stock engine.

 

I ended up buying a stage 1 clutch because I like the "feel" of it. When I bought an OEM-spec Exedy clutch for my D15B in my Civic, it had no feel whatsoever. Almost like the clutch pedal wasn't connected to anything.

On eBay, it cost me $89 to buy-it-now plus $90 to UPS Express ship it to Toronto from Irvine, California. So I am eagerly awaiting this package to come so I can get my car back up-and-running.

As a funny side-note: I dropped off my rental today and picked up my Lude from the dealer. The engine was knocking so loud, that a tow truck decided it was a good idea to follow me all the way home in case it blew totally LOL

 

I have an oem Exedy in my Lude, with a pumped up H23 Vtec lol, and a stage1 Exedy in my WRX, can't compare the 2 different cars exactly, but I like the feel of the Lude clutch more, and it holds 280+ whp just fine.

That said, glad you got the situation worked out so well, the dealer did good for sure. Now get the new engine and get it in there!

 

UPS will rape you with duty fees when they get to your door, just an FYI. You should expect to pay an extra 30-50$ at the door to get your package... UPS sucks that way. Fedex does this too but isn't as bad. Best way to ship up North is by USPS.

 

Wait...so you got an EXEDY stage1 for $90?? and $180 shipped? That's really cheap. You sure it was an exedy clutch?

 

No no, it isn't an Exedy stage 1. I can't remember the brand actually. I'm on a budget and when I got the stage 1 Exedy quoted at my local "Performance Improvements" shop, they said $438 plus tax. On eBay, it's in the $200+ range.

 

Yeah I am expecting this.

I just need thing thing here as quickly as possible so I can get my car working!

 

Your oem-spec Exedy can hold 280 whp? Not too shabby. If I had known that, I may have just bought that instead. As long as there is good feeling in the pedal that would have suited my needs fine.

But I know from experience the Exedy oem-spec for the D-series is far too light.

 

IDK how good the pedal feel will be with a no-name stage1. I had some stage1 clutch laying around that I got for free with a trans deal....it said "seco" on the pressure plate. I installed it on a car and it was the WORST pedal feel. It was kinda firm, but very vague. Personally, I don't cheap out on clutches because I have seen cheap clutches with broken springs, uneven disc wear, and....usually they have the dreaded shitty pedal feel. Then I have to take a couple hours out of my day to change it all out.


I wouldn't have gone with a $90 "stage 1" clutch, brotha. Hope it works out for you, though.

I'd change the rear main seal while you're in there also.