Hello,

As some know I have been rocking my 00 civic with no rear sway bar for some time. I have the EX, so the front sway bar is 22mm. With that said it seems Honda's mentality on their vehicles has always been for the rear to be +-10mm. The SI in this case was 26mm Front and the rear is 13mm. With that said I am curious to know if anyone uses the stock front with a larger or same size rear sway bar? Or do you run a 13mm rear? If so what manufacture and part numbers?

Now to answer the next question that will be coming what is my use for the car? I will use it for auto-x probably. As of right now I am using progress coilovers 350 front and rear with an ASR rear brace. I like how the front handles in terms of the 22mm sway bar, but the rear does seem lose when on aggressive driving. I would like it to become firmer, hence now the reason for a sway bar. I know ASR sells a rear sway bar but it is I believe 24mm but Eibach has a 17mm rear.

Ideas thoughts? (Keep in mind that I would like to leave the front in) If I was to go with the Eibach rear, what would I expect?

Thank you

 

pretty sure ASR makes a 22mm rear, or if you can find a cheap used type r rsb get that.

 

I knew one person runing the 22/13 sway bars, and said he liked. One of the best things he ever did to the car. But, now that he's started getting into Autox he needed more oversteer, and swithced to a 22mm CTR bar.

Only had it out once before a horrible 3rd gear grind showed up. lol But said he liked it, but it's going to take some getting used to.

I have 26/13 and like it, if I can find a 22mm for cheap I'd consider the switch.

 

Untrue. You cannot take one example and apply it to all. I cite the ITR as a perfect counter to this point.

Another example is the CTR - it uses the same size front sway bar as the EM1 but utilizes a 22mm rear sway bar. I think you may see the trend here and it's what a lot of people follow DEPENDING on how THEY want their car to act/react.



If you don't want the rear to become loose then DON'T buy a rear sway bar. A rear sway bar will promote rotation which it sounds like you're trying to avoid.

 

The ITR and CTR only ran a rear and it was a 22mm. Which my case still stands, but let me define it better, if Honda ran a front and rear the difference between them was +-10. The only exception I know was the S2000 but that is a totally different vehicle.

Also if I am not mistaken, hence why I asked my question, the sway bar should promote or stiffen the rear end by counter acting each side. So when a person turns the vehicle around a turn when the right side starts to "twist" into the turn the sway bar leverages the opposite side to keep that other side on the pavement, correct? This would explain why at auto-x events they are able to actually have one tire off the ground, as the sway bar uses the opposite side for leverage and counter act the car losing grip.

With what you mentioned and adding one will make it worse how is that so? I ASSUME that when I add one it will keep the rear planted and not have the loose feeling. If what I mentioned above is true then it will keep the tires planted on the pavement and not want to come up or swing around.

You made good points just trying to understand what you mean.

 

One thing you forgot to take into consideration with your theory of Honda's factory swaybar choices is spring rates. You can get away with no front bar with higher front spring rates. Same with the rear. Spring rates and swaybar sizes all work together. A LOT of people typically run either stock front bar or NO front bar with a much larger rear bar(usually aftermarket 22mm+), but again this all depends on their spring rate choice as well. My daily driver's suspension consists of stock 145k mile shocks, tokico lowering springs(very mild spring rates, not much stiffer than stock), and an Integra 13mm rear swaybar I got for free. Honestly, going from no rear swaybar to the dinky 13mm rear bar wasn't a very noticeable difference for any kind of street driving. I played with this car once when I was instructing at an AutoX school and the car was able to rotate very well, I'm sure partially due to the rear bar, but mainly because of lateral weight transfer during quick transitions. So in that type of scenerio, I'm sure it's a little more beneficial than no bar, but still not a huge difference.

Since you already have the ASR brace, look into the ASR bars. You can also look into the Type-R 22mm rear bar, Progress bars, Suspension Techniques, etc... all are very good.


The other side does not stay on the pavement. It can, and in most cases with our cars, will lift up the rear inside wheel.

Here's a picture of my '95 that I AutoX. Koni/GC and 22mm rear Type-R swaybar. My car ALWAYS lifts the inside rear wheel up during hard corners. Even on the street when going up a banked or uneven driveway/parking lot.


One reason it does this is because the rear shock on the inside wheel is at full droop. The rear swaybar also helps lift the inside wheel. Since this wheel is off of the ground, it's not giving any grip and there is a lot of load on the outside rear wheel. This means the rear of the car will break grip and get "loose", or in otherwords oversteer.

phunhaus is right, adding the rear swaybar will only make your already "loose" rear end worse with more oversteer. You will reach the limit of grip sooner and you'll be getting very quick, almost unpredictable(for inexperienced drivers) oversteer which can easily put you in a spin if you don't know how to read your car, prepare yourself for it and/or save it when the rear does swing out on you. It will not keep the rear planted. It will most likely begin to lift the rear inside wheel during cornering.

You have relatively soft spring rates (350/350) which I'm sure you're still getting a good amount of body roll with. That is probably why you feel like the rear end is "loose" or "floating", because it bascially is. Any oversteer you're getting now is probably more of a result of lateral weight transfer rather than a loss of grip in the rear like if you had higher front/rear rates and a rear bar.

 

Wow amazing and informative post!

See I thought 350 F and R was a lot but then again the roads in NJ and tri state area are bad so pot holes are never the best. In any event what would you suggest? How does one become more prepared for this rear end slide out? I actually had this happen to me back in 02 I believe where my civic had the rear end lift up and come around when taking a turn. I have had other cars prior and never remember it being as bad.

I assume you will say practice, although do you have any other ideas? Is the Integra just as bad? Do you use it to help you on a turn? If so how? Is there a way to make it more neutral or would that be bad on a FWD car?

Thank you

 

You're wrong about the CTR/ITR and that makes all of your assumptions unfounded. Trust me, I've done my fair share of sway bar research. Here's a write up I did years ago that's been rehosted all over the internet:

http://www.ek9.org/forum/suspension/...formation.html

At the end of that first post you'll see FACTORY sizing for Civic/Integra sway bars.


The sway bar is a traction-limiting device. I think that's the easiest way to put it and how I would have preferred to word it earlier (like 2005-ish). The original thread was more detailed but lost a long time ago.

Again, think of it as a traction limiting device on the wheel WITH grip and it'll start to make sense.

 

I assume I do not understand what your saying because I find what you say opposite of what civexspeedy has said.

Let me ask you this. You said "traction limiting device on the wheel WITH grip". Why on earth would I want to limit or remove the tire with grip? Wouldn't this go back to the old days where the tire in the mud would spin but not the one on dry pavement? I understand that this might be a bad example as now we have LSD and so forth but can not think of anything else at this moment.

Thank you

 

Limiting the traction of the tire WITH grip allows for rotation. Keep in mind this only happens in a turn where you're turning hard enough to raise one wheel. In an extreme example it will limit traction to the outer wheel causing the back to want to "skid" out from under itself but stay level to the ground. This is where the term "body roll" applies and this limits body roll or "sway."

It doesn't happen on acceleration regardless of why My Cousin Vinny says.

 

350# is fairly stiff for a street application, but for any type of performance/racing, not at all.

You're right, practice is really the best way to learn your cars characteristics. Oversteer is something you have to experience over and over for you to be able to predict just when it'll happen and why. Learning to get the car to oversteer will also make you learn how to prevent it in the first place. For example, trail/late braking, using weight transfer to induce oversteer (scandinavian flick), hard brake/big lift/turn in, etc... Then learning how to correct oversteer by counter steering, giving more gas, modulating the gas, etc... It's one thing to read it, another to do it over and over to the point where it is a reaction instead of a thought process.

The Integra and Civic are basically the same suspension wise. A larger rear bar and/or stiffer rear end on a FWD car like ours can help you setup for a turn and follow throughout a turn. Works great for racing. But, if it's too much for the street, you can get yourself in trouble if you're screwing around and/or don't know how to control the car. One example would be taking an off ramp too fast, come up to a car that's stopped on the off ramp and you have to brake. That hard braking mid-turn will upset the car and will likely make you oversteer. Possibly causing you to go into the curb or hit the car in front of you.

He's actually saying what I said, just differently. What I said was, "there is a lot of load on the outside rear wheel." and "You will reach the limit of grip sooner ". He said "The sway bar is a traction-limiting device." and "traction limiting device on the wheel WITH grip ". Again, the outside wheel(the one on the ground with grip) during your turn will be heavily loaded and eventually want to lose traction if pushed too far.

 

HAHAAHH My Cousin Vinny, great movie!

I think I am starting to follow you now. As in the picture civexspeedy posted above the sway bar is removing the body roll while also placing more pressure or resistance on the outside tire allowing the car to grip more, correct?

If that is the case this would remove the weightless feeling of the rear end allowing that outside tire to take on more grip and hindering the car from rotating around correct? Or that would be if you know how to drive a FWD car correct? If not then you can or would wind up in a bad situation fast.

 

I figured 350 would be stiff and good for the street. They are from Progress which is a very good company. When I purchased I went with that to make the car feel more neutral although what I forgot was the weight ratio difference between the front and rear of the vehicle. In essence I assume a 350F and 500R might have been better? Although in my mind that would be too stiff and would have probably liked a different combination of front and rear. I assume at 350 and 350 a sway bar might not be needed as possible the ASR and the spring shock combo might have placed the car in a more of an over steer position then stock?

In terms of being in trouble...yep been there :-). Not fun! Although this was the entrance ramp to 295. I assume I braked late and the rear was not happy.

I assume you practice or learned from doing Auto-X events over and over again?

 

what's your alignment settings? tire pressure? with a sway bar you're rear will come out, maybe more then without. the only difference i can remember is that with a rear bar, it'll be a more progressive, and more predictable. unlike not having a rear bar and then you have snap oversteer, which like you said, is not fun.

 

I do not have the specs in front of me but I know my camber is not within Honda standards. The caster and toe are from what I remember within standard specs. If your looking for exact numbers I do not have them and if I do would need to really dig for them.

I hope what I am speaking about is not the norm for my vehicle, I am going based off my old 00 civic which had a different setup totally but still no rear sway bar. I just know what can happen and want to avoid it and do my homework prior. Sorry if I confused anyone or lead them in the wrong direction.

 

no, it's okay, just curious because you said you, spun out going on an on ramp? even with no rear sway bar, the rear end shouldn't have come out on you. unless you were doing 60+ and hit a bump, then i can see it happen. or if you have some crazy rear toe out or something else.

just wanted to know.

 

Ha no worries, this is why I am being very "****" when it comes to picking a bar. I know that the old civic I had was rocking a set of Integra phat fives where now I am on some buddy club 15 x 7" rims on all sides with Dunlop Direzzas which have a lot more grip. I just know what can occur and want to know more about how to make sure, or limit that from occurring again. I believe I have, but want to double check with you guys.

So would you say go with the progress bar or the ASR one? I did notice that the progress one has its own mounting hardware, is that an issue? Or should I go with the Eibach one at 17mm based on my current setup and driver know how?

Thanks

 

350/500 would most likely cause even more oversteer. This is why Progress recommends the 350/500 for AutoX or drag. It'll get you plenty of oversteer for AutoX which works well, but on the street it could be dangerous for an inexperienced driver. Not to mention uncomfortable. Adding a rather large rear swaybar to your current setup will only give you more oversteer. If you planned on racing this car, I'd say go for the bar and test it out. If this is purely a fun street car, I'd save the money.

Yes, I've been AutoXing for 6 years and have been a student and instructed at numerous schools. An AutoX school is the best place to learn about car control, even if you don't plan on racing. All of those tools they teach you apply to the streets for everyday driving and could save you butt one day. It's something I recommend everyone try out atleast once. Most times it's a big eye opener.

I would go with the ASR bar since you have the ASR subframe brace. The Progress swaybar comes as a kit that has it's own type of subframe brace. Since you already have the ASR brace, there is no need for another brace. It probably wouldn't even fit. I believe ASR sells a 22mm, 24mm and a 32mm hollow bar. Eibach may not be a bad choice either. I'm not sure if they sell any other hardware like a subframe brace, I don't think they do, but it's worth checking out.

 

I will have to check out some places in NJ that teach those types of classes, wouldn't be a bad idea. I would also rather use my car and not another one as that might not help me that much.

This is not an everyday car by far, I think I drove it like two weeks ago. It is turbo'd so the extra power and extra grippier tires I need to relearn how to drive this Honda, although the power is not crazy, just 210 to the wheels. Still light car, suspension setup and high power need to become wiser on how to push the limits.

I will probably go with the ASR bar as you mentioned although I will probably need some endlinks. Should I also use ASR or something else as they seem to be on the more costly end. Thoughts?

 

if you really want to go to some autox class' then you're going to have to head over to the philly, or dc region and do some EVO class'.