Hello H-T,

My roommate has a 2004 Edit: it's a 2003. Shouldn't be any different though, right? At least for PS Pumps the part numbers are the same across years. Honda Civic Coupe EX; with a D17(A2? It's a SOHC VTEC) and an automatic transmission. It has about 150k miles on it.

I have worked on cars all my life and am pretty competent; but don't have a lot of specific experience with Hondas. So, I need your help with diagnosing a problem and a few resources.

I apologize that this will likely be pretty long by time I'm done typing, but I'll do my best to make sure it's organized.

The power steering is definitely not healthy.
-At startup the pump sounds fine.

-The fluid froths up very quickly. About 2 minutes of idling and one turn lock-to-lock of the wheel, and there's about half an inch of froth in the reservoir.

-At this point, the pump sounds very bad. I've boiled fluid autocrossing before, and heard whining turn into a sick groan; but this sounds much grittier than what I am used to hearing with boiling fluid / air in the lines. Not quite pure metal-on-metal sound, but it sounds more gritty like gears grinding than typical whining / groaning. The way my roommate described it was as "A manual transmission driving in reverse," which is pretty accurate.

-The noise is directly related to RPM, and occurs whenever the steering is not centered; and louder when turning the wheel (than holding it turned) and as steering angle increases. Pretty typical / expected.

-As far as I can tell the rack is fine. No noise, binding, etc. that would suggest problems.

-As far as I can tell, the pumps, lines, and rack do not have any leaks.

-The fluid is a little bit low. Nowhere near the bottom of the reservoir though. It looks like it's overflowed before and gotten the outside of the reservoir and the hose that comes out of the bottom and feeds the PS pump is wet; but it's all on the reservoir side and not the pump side.

-The fluid is dark and somewhat burnt smelling; but not extremely alarming.

-The car has not been driven hard for at least the last 70k miles.

-It is the same with A/C on or off; the A/C clutch is engaging correctly and the A/C works properly.

-The accessory drive belt looks fine.

-The pulley, as far as I can tell, is fine. I wasn't able to tell if there is any shaft play in the pulley while the belt was on.

-It just started this weekend, when he drive a two-hour-per way round trip and then a short drive to work and back today. The car is driven around the city (Atlanta), with either very short trips or down the highway, usually about 30 minute trips.

-As aforementioned, he's not a very aggressive driver, doesn't have huge sticky tires, and has never autocrossed etc. If it's been abused, it was by the previous owner 60k+ miles ago.

How y'all can help me / Questions I have for you
-Is this a common problem / does anyone have first-hand experience they can chime in here with? I did search but wasn't able to find more than a few miscellaneous threads about sound or leaks.

-I'd like opinions on if you think it's rebuildable or not. This week when I have time (Tuesday), I'll be able to take the pump off and inspect it, and tear it down and look at it; but until then I'd like your opinions / experiences.
I fear that, as it's not leaking at all and it's making grinding noises, there is a problem with the vanes and a simple rebuild, inspection/cleaning, and seal kit won't solve the problems.
Inversely, if there is an internal leak that's causing cavitation, the sounds could just be a lot of air in the pump, and this power steering pump makes different sounds than my previous experiences with air in PS lines.

-If anyone has a good diagram of the pump and/or the power steering section manual of the service manual, I'd really appreciate it. I'll admit, I have not searched for the service manual much yet. So far the best I've found is from (www.hondaautomotiveparts.com).

-Do you have a recommended source for parts / a new PS pump if required? There's a NAPA nearby that I trust: they have both a seal kit and a refurbished pump in stock, according to the website. The refurbished pump is $180 there, It's be awesome if I could source one for less. I can give Pull-a-Part a call, Civics are pretty common; other suggestions?

-Is there anything unique about this specific PS Pump I should know when disassembling it?

-Will this pump be similar to those used in the sixth generation Civics (as shown here: https://honda-tech.com/forums/acura-integra-6/how-rebuilding-98-01-power-steering-ps-pump-2821495/
As they also used a D-series, I expect they would be pretty similar but may have a few differences.

-Is this posted in the right place? I didn't see a technical forum that quite fit. If it isn't or you have any other (preferably constructive) criticisms, feel free to tell me.

Thanks very much for your help!

 

UPDATE:

Ran the car again as I was showing him what I'm seeing and what's going on (he wasn't there the first time).

This time, in addition to the grinding sounds of the pump, it was singing - sounds of a bearing dying. Looks like a new pump is in order.

Suggestions / information still very much appreciated.


Also, upon closer inspection of the thread I linked to about older style power steering pumps, the new one looks quite different.

 

About 2 years ago I did a fluid flush because it was looking nasty- and it was low on fluid. After the flush it made the same sound you describe. I was gonna rebuild it but, after about a week the sound went away. Been fine ever since.

 

Thanks for the input; but I don't think my case is something that will just go away.

After flushing the fluid, it makes sense that there might be some air in the lines that would make the pump make sound. But what I'm observing here is that the fluid in the reservoir is de-frothing after sitting, and as the car runs, a lot of bubbles are formed. When I looked at it last night with my roommate, the reservoir almost filled up with bubbles in about 10 minutes of running.

There is no recent event that would cause there to be air in the lines (flushing the fluid, racing, etc.).

I am really impressed with the layout and engineering of the car, as I look at it more. It was clearly designed in the old Japanese style of building not only for low cost but very easy serviceability. I can post pictures explaining what I mean, and will probably make an account / DIY of the replacement process here since I haven't been able to find any searching.

 

You definately have air in the system!Are you agree with me on that one?If fluid is bubbling that's air getting there from somewhere.I would start by flushing the system and properly bleeding it,but I'm pretty convinced that the pump is gone.By changing the pump and having an air leak somewhere you might destroy the other pump also so I would spend some time and make sure there is no air getting in the system before anything.It will cost you some fluid-not much).You might have internal leak also which seeping air inside.

 

I absolutely agree with you!

What I was saying is, I do have air in the system. But the lines are not leaking at all and there is no other reason for the system to have gotten air in it. This, coupled with the extent to which the pump sounds so awful, makes me think that the pump is blown.

I have heard of other cars (Subaru), letting air in the system through the lines without leaking any fluid out; but the fittings on this seem good and are much better design that what Subaru uses (hoses on plugs, held by spring-clips).

Furthermore, I really like the design of the Honda PS system, in that the return fluid from the steering rack goes to the reservoir and then the pump feeds from the bottom of the reservoir. This means that the pump is sucking in entirely liquid power steering fluid while the foamed liquid sits in the top of the reservoir. Subaru, for example, does not return to the reservoir directly and just hopes that bubbles in the system will float to the top of the reservoir anyway. Subaru's system is very sensitive to air in the system, but as far as I can tell the Honda system does a good job of purging air out before it is recirculated through the pump, at least until all the fluid in the reservoir is frothed.

So, you are correct that it's probably a good idea to flush the system with new fluid and see what happens first. But if there is a line letting air into the system, the new fluid would froth anyway.


... My current plan of action is to try and go get a pump at pull-a-part, because that is the cheapest solution available; to take off the current pump and tear it down. If there appears to be no problems with it, then I know I have to start searching more closely because another part of the system causing the foaming.
Then, inspect the one from pull-a-part and install it, see if it works. If it does, great; if not, I still didn't do too much labor so taking it back apart, inspecting the rest of the system, and getting a warranted, refurbished NAPA pump is the next step. I'd just rather save my roommate $150 if possible.

 

Before you replace the pump, try this first. The screen in the reservoir gets clogged up and the pump is sucking air causing the fluid to foam. This happened on my Civic and i did not have to replace anything. It is already 190k miles.

1. Drain the fluid off the reservoir by disconnecting the suction hose from the pump. Catch the fluid with a small plastic container.
2. Pull out the reservoir.
3. Dip it in a container full of degreaser.
4. Rinse it off with a water hose back flushing it until the screen filter is clean. You may have to do this a couple of times until the screen is clean.
5. Dry it up with compressed air or just let it dry.
6. Put it back and reconnect the hoses.
7. Fill it up with Honda power steering fluid
8. Turn the engine on and turn the steering wheel full lock a couple of times.
9. check the fluid level again and top it up.
10. If you don't want to go thru this cleaning, just buy a new reservoir.

Good luck.

 

Thanks! This is exactly the kind of specific experience I was looking for. Just this afternoon I was thinking about / discussing what could possibly introduce air into the pump.

If only I had read this before I went to flush the fluid with him tonight.

I just got back from flushing the fluid; it was clear that the old fluid was very aerated; and post-flush the new fluid has the steering feeling much better and the pump sounding like it should. He's going to restart driving it for the next few days as we monitor it.

If the problem shows up again, it can't hurt to re-flush the fluid and clean the reservoir.

 

Mechanic told me I needed to flush my power steering. I'm at 200k miles and have not done so in the past. Advice?