hello, i pretty much got the fuel adjustment down easily s300 now, and i'd like to learn how to tune the timing... such as:
- for FI, do you play with the cam gears to eliminate as much overlap as you can before playing with the s300?
- at what point do you need to advance or retard the timing?
- do you always advance as much as possible for low rpm and retard it a bit at high rpm?
- do you always retard the timing for FI under high rpm to gain more safety?
- when playing with timing, for b18a/b that doesn't have a knock sensor, how do you tune it? ghetto fab a knock sensor? or maybe tap one or something?
- do most of you guys play with the timing at all? or you just leave it stock and only play with the fuel table?

 

Are you using a dyno to tune the timing? Its kinda risky to do without one.

What cams are you using? Stock LS?

 

Stock LS with RC550 for now, diy street tune. Idle like stock and runs smooth all the way to redline right now. Plan on tuning it myself as well after I throw in the turbo. So now I'm trying to learn more about tuning the timing as well.

 

Retard 1 degree per lb of boost that you are running and use that as your baseline.

Even though it is possible to tune ignition on the street, I wouldnt recommend it... Especially if you are just learning to tune. Invest in a knock detection tool (There are a few kinds). And learn to read spark plugs.

I am new to tuning as well. Do some reading on PGMFI.org There is very useful information there.

This is also a good read about cam tuning

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...ticky-please-*

 

Be very careful, I don't think you have a good understanding of ignition timing and what you are doing with it based on what you wrote.

I'll give you a few quick bits of advice, but Max500 gave a good summary. Always start conservative with timing, and be very careful adjusting it, especially on a FI engine. Read up on the subject some more. Use a dyno if at all possible, if not and you really want to try and optimize ignition timing on the road/track, get some form of knock detection and learn to read plugs.

 

I wouldn't be asking for tips and tricks if i know how to tune the timing table lol
I already stated I haven't start playing with the timing in s300 yet, and I'm in the process of learning how to do it.

Guys, would be more helpful if you could provide a picture or link that you THINK is a good knock detection, in my first post i already asked for how you fab/source your knock sensor... so telling me to "get some knock detection" is not really helping me or others who may read this thread in the future lol... I've read that people hacked up some hearing aid and used it as a knock sensor... that's one example, but i'd like to know which one YOU used and whether you like it or not.

I am really try to avoid dyno if possible, what i'm trying to tune here is part throttle timing, not WOT. I've ready read something similar that Max500 posted long time ago at team-integra.net, is very good general information to play with the cam gears and cam tuning.

What i'm trying to do here is to gather some knowledge from people who used S300 and played with the timing table themselves... maybe someone made/buy a knock sensor and somehow attached the signals to S300, so it would automatically log and retard the timing... maybe someone had faced some problems while they tune their timing and if those people could share what they encounter, it would be good to know before me or anyone else start tuning their timing.

tips, tricks, s300

 

A lot of tuners don't use knock detectors, including myself normally, because they are not a reliable way of tuning ignition timing.

Also, S300 is not significantly different than the other honda rom editors, so this isn't S300 specific, they are all relatively the same.

 

You will not be able to tune timing on the street very accurately. Best you will get is a good range that you "feel" works well and thats if you are conservative. Worst case, you will knock and if you dont catch it in time... Blown motor. So, in essence, retarding 1 degree per pound saves you time and risk. What Im trying to say here is you cant make appropriate changes to your timing map if you dont know how its affecting your engine. So retard 1 degree per lb and call it day till you have access to a dyno.

As for knock detection devices. You can make a "det-can" and listen to the engine for knock. These work well but not for me, only because my wastegate dump is just under my oil pan and when it opens I cant hear ****, Lol. Or you can look into an electronic knock detection system like a J&S Safeguard. Ive never used it but I hear its good.

But Like The Inspector said, most tuners dont really use these devices. They use a Dyno and find Maximum Brake Torque. Thats your optimum timing!

 

when you guys say add or subtract 1 degree, do you mean that you are doing this to the entire table? or just part(s) of the table? I would like to learn more about this topic also.

With these types of questions people usually respond by saying "its complicated, you need a dyno". Or, "consult a professional tuner". This is useless. Lets hear from some people who actually know how to successfully tune ignition timing, preferably in a step by step "for dummies" fashion.

It would be nice to get some numbers in here, such as typical values at low and high load, vtec considerations, N/A vs boost, etc.

 

Thats dependent on case by case basis. Max and Inspector gave very good guidelines on tuning ignition. I wont even touch it if Im not on the dyno... Most tuners on here will tell you 12-15 degrees max on a pump gas turbo street car.

 

Are you saying the people that are answering don't know what they are doing?? Thats a great way to get help from people....

We say that, because its true. As was mentioned, it varies from setup to setup and can depend on a lot of things. If you are serious about learning about it, you could look up articles on it yourself, and then play with it in real life to learn. Instead, I assume you just want someone to tell you how to tune it and explain it all to you, not going to happen.

Here is a summary of how to tune ignition timing, which you would probably find if you searched for yourself.

Make sure the car is running fine and has good fueling and conservative ignition timing. Put it on the dyno, do a pull. Advance ignition timing, look at power/torque, where it increases, continue adding timing, where it didn't, pull back, and try less timing. Play until you have the most power everywhere.

 

In one of the drop down menus in the s300 there is an option called "create boost tables" I believe. It will let you add a certain % of fuel and automatically retard timing however much u want it to per pound of boost. Use that as a starting point for creating your pressure side of the map.

 

I appreciate the answers guys. There is some simple but valuable information there. No need to get defensive... Or make assumptions.

My point is that there is little information on this topic. Simple approaches, numbers for different setups, knock voltage, talk about tables (high/low speed), triumphs and failures etc etc would be a great reference and contribution to the site.

So far in this thread, there is little to no technical discussion. Lets hear from the experts.

To inspector: why dont you use knock detectors? How do you know when you've advanced too much?

 

I'm also VERY new to tuning, I've been reading as much information as I can find time to read on it. I just bought an s300 but havn't gotten the chance to try it out yet. I am 2 hours from the closest dyno, So I can understand your confusion.

However, as stated above, you have too much timing advance when you start to lose power. He said he doesn't use knock detectors because they are not reliable enough and he prefers a dyno before making any major adjustments.

I personally have a question regarding an accelerometer/egt gauge posted in the tuning thread but have got no replies, does anyone have any experience with accelerometers? And what is a good EGT to get? Are there certain requirements for the EGT to use for tuning purposes?

Keep the discussion coming, I just learned a couple more things by reading this thread

 

I hope those aren't total timing numbers... especially for lower boost/stock map sensor applications.

I've tuned dozens of cars over the years and the only one on 10 psi or less that wound up near thosenumbers was a stock d16z6 which I had at 15 total degrees and 10 psi. Most cars i street tune wind up between 16 and 20 degrees timing on 93 octane. My car on the other hand is currently at 15 degrees total timing on pump gas, but that's 10:1 compression, 16 psi and 440hp.

most often stock engine/map sensor and pump gas cars I street tune begin with that generic 1 degree retard per psi. for example, if an ls engine runs 28 degrees timing at 7000 rpm @ 0" vacuum and I want to run 8 psi. Then id set the timing at 20 degrees. Usually I pull at little extra timing out around 5 to 6k rpm or where the engine makes max tq, as that is the point of peak cyl pressures. Ill ramp it up a bit as piston speed increases toward redline. Street tuning for timing is a pain in the ***, lots of. Spark plug checking and shutting the car off and coasting to the shoulder of the road. Honestly use the roughly 1 degree generic retard, street tune your air fuel ratios then hit the dyno to finalize everything. U will spend less time and money on the dyno this way.

As far as exact settings I can't say definitely what to set it at, just give you my experiences. Factors like bore size, compression ratio, volumetric efficiency, rpm gas octane etc all play a factor

Also, I have an egt but I don't really use it for tuning. Its more for when im giving it throttle on the street in high gears to make sure I don't get too hot. At 500hp at the end of a nice 3rd through 4th gear pull im only about 750 degrees celcius, which is only around 100 degrees more than when im cruising on the highway

 

great post. ive wondered why alot of Hondata's ignition maps have the dip around 5-6k rpm. What I get here so far for boost is to take a reliable map for a stock engine, and retard 1 degree per pound of boost as boost increases. "stock" values can be use while out of boost. So for a 350hp engine at 15psi on a b16a it might be safe to assume that 15-18* of timing would be acceptable at full load, high rpm. Of course, this theory must be used with caution, as 15 psi can make well over or under 350hp with some turbos, so more or less timing would need to be pulled under this circumstance, along with other variables.