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Heel-toe brake pedal effort

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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 01:00 PM
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Default Heel-toe brake pedal effort

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Last edited by EJ1B18c; Apr 7, 2022 at 06:05 AM.
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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

hmmm a most interesting question.
What is your current set up? Brakes front and rear, and pads.
I also dont brake using my whole foot.
I tend to lift my big toe and apply even pressure.
Less chance of me locking up that way, and i can pivot my foot easier.
Some people drive with two feet. One on the accellerator and one on the clutch and brake.
It all takes lots of practice though. its not an overnight learned thing.
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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 02:40 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Do you have a 40/40 prop valve?
Ya might want to push the brake pads up to something with more bite in the hawk line.
It looks like thats what you are running now.
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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

try hawk DTC-60

hp+ are good up to a limit...when heat kicks in, they're not that great. they are more of a street pad.

it should always be possible (maybe not always easy) to heel and toe.

good luck
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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Tell me if I'm hearing you right:
It sounds like you're saying when you're pressing the brake pedal down hard in a hard braking zone, you have trouble maintaining a constant pressure while trying to swivel your foot/heel to blip the throttle.

If thats what's happening:
1. Instead of trying to use your heel, and rotating your foot all the way around, instead use the ball of your foot on the brake pedal, and rotate your ankle sideways such that the right side of your foot can blip the gas (instead of your heel). Your foot position will be sort of having part of your foot on the brake and part on the gas at the same time. I've always found this way much easier to do, especially when teaching it to heel-toe noobs.
2. Practice more Maintaining the correct pedal modulation is one of the hardest parts of properly heel-toeing. Just takes doing it a whole lot.
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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

yep lots, and lots of practice.
then practice some more.
I drive a stick daily and I still dont have it down.
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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 08:38 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

It should always be easy to lock up the brakes. There is something fundamentally wrong if you find it difficult to see smoke in a production car. You should hit the brakes very hard at first to get rid of the inertia in the wheels, tires, and brake rotors. In a production car, your brake effort should be fairly steady until you begin turning. You should feel you're right on the ragged edge of locking up throughout the entire braking zone (including after turn-in) if you've done things right. If any of this sounds incorrect, change things in your brake system, starting with the easiest (pads, rotors, the hydraulics) until this feels about right.

The advice on heel toe has been pretty dead on so far. The biggest thing is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. Any time you see three pedals, try to use one foot for two.

I wouldn't try left-foot-braking unless you have a gearbox that can handle it.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 04:01 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

sometimes going into a corner so fricken hot you can barely slow it down enough leads to going out of said turn slower.

i think if your so ragged-edge on a single particular turn, you might want to re-think that turn, and maybe get some higher end data aquisition stuff that can tell you whats going on in that turn. a couple miles an hour slower might mean your fighting the car less, the tire might hook better, and you might be able to get on the gas a second or two faster.

sometimes the wildest craziest line isnt that fast, it just feels that way.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 05:24 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Originally Posted by Stinkycheezmonky
If thats what's happening:
1. Instead of trying to use your heel, and rotating your foot all the way around, instead use the ball of your foot on the brake pedal, and rotate your ankle sideways such that the right side of your foot can blip the gas (instead of your heel). Your foot position will be sort of having part of your foot on the brake and part on the gas at the same time. I've always found this way much easier to do, especially when teaching it to heel-toe noobs.
That is exactly how I do it, plus there is a bunch of metal in my ankle that doesn't allow for as friendly range of motion.

I know people say to practice it on street but it is never graceful for me; however, on track it is perfectly fine :shrugs:
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 05:36 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Originally Posted by itrSteez
I know people say to practice it on street but it is never graceful for me; however, on track it is perfectly fine :shrugs:


exactly how i feel
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 07:23 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Originally Posted by itrSteez
That is exactly how I do it, plus there is a bunch of metal in my ankle that doesn't allow for as friendly range of motion.
lol? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetsuo:_The_Iron_Man

I roll my ankle over also using the two halves of the ball of my foot on both pedals. My feet are way to big to even attempt to actually use the heel in any sort of normal pedal box. I definitely find it easier on track than at street speeds. Maybe I just need to drive more aggressively
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 07:39 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Doing it well on the street is definitely harder than on track. Once again though, just practice practice practice That being said I know a number of people, whether through injury or age, that can't move their right ankle like that.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 08:11 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Originally Posted by Erik95LS
lol? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetsuo:_The_Iron_Man

I roll my ankle over also using the two halves of the ball of my foot on both pedals. My feet are way to big to even attempt to actually use the heel in any sort of normal pedal box. I definitely find it easier on track than at street speeds. Maybe I just need to drive more aggressively
Call me crazy but if you're driving like a civilized human being w/o heavy braking and not speed shifting by the time you complete your downshift the engine/road speed should match. Or perhaps I just drive like a grandmother, but any street rev matching usually just turned into an extremely embarrassing display of over revving the **** out of my car coming into the gas station.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 08:19 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Im the gas station pull-into downshift 6 gears MASTER!

Yeah - practice and try a better set of pads. HP+'s are poo
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 09:08 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

One of the big differences in street h/t vs. track h/t is how much of a gas blip you give. Way less on the street unless you're driving like an *******.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 10:24 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Originally Posted by Stinkycheezmonky
One of the big differences in street h/t vs. track h/t is how much of a gas blip you give. Way less on the street unless you're driving like an winner.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 12:44 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Originally Posted by Stinkycheezmonky
One of the big differences in street h/t vs. track h/t is how much of a gas blip you give. Way less on the street unless you're driving like johnny tran.



like steve said, i still drive like grandma betty on the street and well the track too. but, i still "practice" on the street everyday. it has actually became habit, you can do the downshift at a lower rpm to still "execute the shift properly". too much gas or not enough can be felt/heard/"sensed" regardless of rpm.

one problem i got from doing it on the street is when i go to the track i would want to do the downshift at the same moment i got to the brake. obviously this isn't good going into a heavy brake zone, i got over that habit quickly.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 01:04 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

I would definitely change out the brake pads for something a little more hardcore, pads that have a good initial bite but good modulation.

I ran the HP+ at Gingerman last week on the EM1. Figured they would work well like they did on my EP3 years prior. However i found the braking to be dull and soft, so i won't be running those again next time out. Looking at Carbotech XP10s front and XP8s rear for the car next time.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 07:00 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

LOL @ post edits!

Originally Posted by EJ1B18c
My every day vehicle is a Nissan terrano 2.7tdi. So practicing heel toe on street is impossible, diesel engines dont have the throttle response needed.
The gear ratios in my civic cause me to worry as the engine rpm's are very high and should be matched on downshifts. Its going to be eventual epic fail if i dont recfity my prob.
Just keep practicing dude. And FWIW, I could heel-toe my old diesel Rabbit all day long.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 09:02 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Heel toe is more than just blindly revving the engine with the brake lights on. Why I recommend practicing on the street is to better peoples' reception to what the car needs. I HATE, more than anything else in the world, coaching people from the right seat that over-blip downshifts. If I go home with a sore neck because someone hasn't figured out how to be gentle with rev-matching, I won't be happy to go back to work with the person the next day.

I've practiced on diesels, hot rods, GT cars, DP cars, etc. I recommend leaning how to do it in your sleep. It is a great skill to have and almost prerequisite to go racing at all. Imagine if DaVinci couldn't easily pick up a pencil and hold it correctly....
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

I have trouble with my setup now doing a heel toe downshift. My pedals aren't close enough to roll over and my legs are too long in the proper seat position and they hit the steering wheel. I need a longer hub and smaller wheel. I used to be able to do it with ease but my long legs now are in an awkward position and it just doesn't work out.
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Old Sep 14, 2011 | 04:03 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Originally Posted by EJ1B18c
Stock 262mm discs stock calipers hp+ pads front ferodo ds2000 rear pads.
SS lines ,1' MC. Using R888 205/50/15.
Quite simple this one, your master cylinder is too big. Using a 1" MC usually reserved for the 282/262 and bigger setups on a 262/242 setup is going to involve more pedal input (around 10%) for the same brake torque. Upsizing the MC alone is NOT an upgrade.

Either swap the original MC back in or upgrade the calipers front and rear to match it.
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Old Sep 14, 2011 | 04:25 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

bigger masters move more fluid....i dont see how a bigger master could make less brake torque for the same pedal input.
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Old Sep 14, 2011 | 06:30 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

Originally Posted by redzcstandardhatch
bigger masters move more fluid....i dont see how a bigger master could make less brake torque for the same pedal input.
I would go and do some reading up on hydraulic principals then...
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Old Sep 14, 2011 | 08:09 AM
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Default Re: Heel-toe brake pedal effort

i dunno ur asking a good question but ur driving in ur video is choppy... maybe u need to learn to drive smoother first.. u lock up the brakes slide into a turn gas it understeer keep going.. u drive very stressfull.. if thats ur video..
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