Hey.

My recent pinion upgrade allow for never doing steering shuffle in 98% of the curves on the track I run on. It made me realize that I had a habit of doing it. It was totally natural and very efficient, but steady, non-shuffle is as well.

After watching a few videos....I notice some drivers do it, some don't.

What do you do, and what do you prefer ?

I must say that non-shuffling feels pretty smooth, but you sometime appreciate having shuffled when you get rotation mid-corner at speeds and both your hands are in a perfect position to fight the excitement.

Opinions ?

 

I shuffle, I see a lot of guys fully cross their arms up and when the car start to push or oversteer they just don't have the control. I have no problem with shuffle. You will see a lot of videos of people driving with their arms extended and crossed with their little 320mm steering wheels on youtube. I'm not sure where this is coming from but maybe video games?

 

I crossed my arms till I went to a driving school at Fontana where the instructor told me try to shuffle. I found it so much more easier to control the wheel shuffled. I have not crossed my arms since on the track or on the street.

 

Besides > unbounded control there is a reason, once maximum crossed you are not turning any further. Have a need to correct further and you are out of options.

 

Exactly! I have driven without shuffling before and it isn't a confident feeling in the turns because if you need to correct quickly there isn't much more you can go and it puts you in a awkward position. I have considered a steering quickener to get more of an open wheel feel so more time can be spent with hands completely on the wheel but I have heard the gears in the quickeners can break sending you into a wall without control or that on a road course at higher speeds the car becomes twitchy and too responsive.

 

I have seen drivers cross their arms, but at a young age i was taught not to cross my arms ever.
Not only does it feel awkward but in the event the wheel snaps back something can get broken.
Id like to hear some more racers chime in on this especially our pro series drivers.

 

This is all very interesting. Most modern, high-end race schools recommend to never move your hands away from 9-and-3 position on the wheel. Unless you're driving a car that has 4 turns lock-to-lock, there's no reason not to. I have never seen a professional driver shuffle steer under normal conditions. Even for the highway survival programs I instruct at Jim Russell, we teach to not remove a hand from that position until at LEAST 180-degrees of rotation.

If something happens that requires fast movement of the wheel, my best bet would be to keep my hands where they are instead of some crazy spider hands move trying to reposition everything. There may also be a time someday where you drive a car so twitchy that wheel location is extremely important, you wouldn't want to risk that thing not being upright when you want it to be.

Anyway, I've posted these a couple times around here, but I'm always watching my old videos keeping my head straight and watching for examples like this. This may or may not be applicable since there's never a huge amount of lock, but hand location is still almost unchanging with the exception of a couple big slides in a couple videos. I'd say the first video (which is most recent) of the Camaro GS.R has some good examples of steering without shuffle in some tighter corners. All these cars except for the ALMS Corvette have stock steering ratios.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkvaXMKgbHY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTXfG7_XbYk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80Pwr5kDmZ4


Again, TAKE VIDEO. These things help, shuffle steering may look silly when you just take a look from a different perspective.

 

Mr Bell, thanks for sharing. Had you in mind when I posted.

Do you have a video driving a Honda or Integra ?

 

Thats what Im talking about!
Such smoothness even when the car twitches!

Thanks Matt!

 

I do not have any video, unfortunately, but I have driven these two guys at the same track:





The CRX had the worst steering in that it was very multiplied to make up for no power steering. If I remember right (and as can be seen in the photo) I turned in as much as possible without moving my hands, then hand-over-handed past that. In that way I kept my hands located best at 9-and-3 and minimized confusing movements.

 

If you're new to track driving, Never let go of the wheel.

If you've been driving on the track for a bit and shuffle the wheel... Keep shuffling.

Neither way is the "right" way, except in vehicles with quick steering ratios (ie. Never shuffle in a shifter kart, radicals, etc)

 

I would add it's car specific for me. I have an s2000 pretty much stock with stock steering wheel and power steering. I tend to do the 9 and 3 and cross my arms a good bit.

On the other hand I have an EG civic with a k20 motor. No power steering and a 330 mm wheel. That car I totally shuffle steer. I never feel like I can give theca mount of steering force and input if my hands are not in the 9 and 3 position at all times.

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2086/...e6beb0ea_z.jpg

 

I would recommend that if you can learn to keep your hands put, do it, it'll be a good thing for the reasons I've given. I'll also agree though that if you're used to shuffling due to your equipment, there are worse habits to form.

I'd say that for people that feel uncomfortable crossing your hands (in response to a PM... sorry I didn't address it), do two things: move your seat forward (or your wheel back) and try to keep your head more upright. I've seen a lot of people look visibly uncomfortable because they feel really crossed up when they needn't be, simply because they've stretched their arms to the wheel even before they put any steering in. The head thing goes more into the "willing the car to move" versus just making it happen mental paradox. I've been sleepy in an unfamiliar cockpit doing the same thing, trying to lean my head to get my hands to move the wheel. It usually means I'm doing something wrong from the neck down and some fix down there makes the head stay a bit more straight. Get comfortable (MOVE FORWARD) and try to look where you want to send the car, not lean your head in the general direction. When you tilt your head, you're either causing confusion or reacting to it.

I'd say 90% of the criticisms I give people in coaching their driving position is that they sit too far back. I'm 5'6", look how close I sit in that Camaro. I sit much closer now than I have in the past, mostly because I've learned it is much easier on me. I can feel a car better, not being stretched out, and I can run longer in a stint because my shoulders and forearms aren't getting worn out.

 

I remember when I was at mid-ohio school, the rule of thumb was to sit with your arms extended in front of you, with your seat back at the angle you're going to use. Move the seat forward until your wrists are resting against the steering wheel. Closer may be ok (lol NASCAR drivers!...even tho they have their reasons)... But no further away than that.

 

while keeping your shoulders back against the seat, yes. It is a good general guideline. Seating position is one of the most overlooked aspects of track driving. Its pretty important

 

It's hard to describe in text, but I usually say that while your spine between your shoulder blades (Read: center of your back, so there's no cheating) is against the seat, extend one arm forward. You should be able to break your wrist over the 12-o'clock position of the wheel EASILY. I love watching people I coach try to get creative and fit their awkward seating position into this cookie cutter. You've never seen someone make their arms so long!

 

Coming from a rally guy, where you have lots of steering input with varying corners. I keep my hands firm at 9 and 3 unless I need to sort things out (like my near off in this video). The way I see it. If I'm at 9 and 3 on the wheel and things get tight, I can bring my hands right back to normal and know that I am pointed straight. The problem with shuffling, is that you will lose track of where you are on the wheel. You'll point the wheel where you "think" it's straight, but then realize you were off by a rotation because you went too much.

With my incident in this video, and my crash from TN. I had issues too much correction and not enough throttle to pull the car right. I've actually had for a while, a coleman 1.5:1 quickener that I need to install in the car. After one of those moments finally catching up with me, I am installing it before my next event. This will bring the 3.5 lock-to-lock, to a 2.3 lock-to-lock.

Gravel video in MO with incident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6RJHdXRGds

TN with crash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzh2EiqhlpY

 

Very well put. That's basically what I was trying to say about wheel location. Could you imagine trying to shuffle at the speed of those correction and at those amounts of wheel angle? Forget about trying to get it back straight accurately! Awesome videos! The closest I get to rally is coaching the Evo program at JR... Oh what I would do to run a stage or two....

 

That's why I want the quickener on the car. Right now I could have a higher chance of losing track of the wheel while shuffling. With just over 2 turns lock-to-lock, pretty much if the wheel is pointed straight, I'm either turning hard left, hard right, or going straight. Should be pretty easy to figure out where I am.

Plus, I can do half of my total steering input without removing my hands from the wheel. Right now, I can only get 1/3 of my steering travel.

 

Hmm I'm actually surprised about keeping your hand at 9 and 3 with stock ratio especially the rally. I did a rallycross about a month a go and did nothing but shuffle. My hands stayed about 5 and 7. I just put tape on the wheel to indicate straight and shuffled. Also found throttle helped straighten the wheel if I let go of it. Did well enough to run with last years national champ and most of the 4wd cars.

Autocrossing I usually have my hands around 8 and 4 while shuffling. Although there's not nearly as much.

 

I've been trying to keep the hands at 9 and 3 lately without any shuffle or such just doing some spirited driving... it is steady but doesn't feel safe. Even with proper seat adjustment and such I feel limited in motion which is why I started to shuffle. With a shorter steering ratio it would be easy but for the tight turns or steering correction it feels too slow to react not moving my hands from the 9 and 3 position.

 

You should never need more than that. I guaranty that keeping your hands on will net a safer experience. It may seem uncomfortable since you're not used to it. I've played around in the snow with a 9000lb Ford diesel truck without moving my hands outside the 9 and 3. If I had to go more steering than 180-degrees I would do it with hand-over-hand allowing my hands to still match up only to 9 and 3 again-- always with the right hand on the correct side.

 

Here watch Tommi Mäkinen driving a WRX STI at the Nurburgring, he is not alone nor the first:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_7gax_TFlU&feature=fvsr



Matt I question your solo/autocross experience and your hand over hand suggestion?

Your fixed hand position suggestion is not possible with most stock production cars competing in solo events and allowing ones hands/arms to become crossed up to 180 degrees, positions oneself with no controlled options to introduce additional steering input.

It is imposable to introduce enough steering input with out moving your hands from the 9 and 3 position during most solo competitions.

The proper method to precisely control a car is to shuffle steer the car when you are required to move your hands from the 9 and 3 position be it during solo events, on the track or driving on the street.

Physiologically hand over hand provides less control and precision in addition hand over hand provides a greater risk of tripping over ones own other hand leading to complete loss of car control.

You will not see these guys using a hand over hand method and to suggest it is misleading!

Mike Johnston, Multi SCCA National Solo Champion driving a 2006 Chevrolet Z06, 2011 ASP 2nd place run US National Championship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7xbJ...2&feature=plpp

Watch Steve Hoelscher, Multi SCCA National Solo Champion driving 1986 Toyota MR2, 2011 DP run US National Championship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMzOpzy1j4U

 

IMO Solo is WAY different type of driving style compared to track/rally. I barely get on stages or on track something where I need to do hand over hand. AutoX is just made up of a whole bunch of lock-to-lock type turns. I can't really stand doing AutoX that much anymore, because course design can widely vary between a good course and bad course and is never a constant that you can use to improve yourself.

Although, it somewhat helps with rally to drive unknown corners as fast as you can at first glance.

I looked back to some of my autocross videos and I noticed I do a mix of shuffling, hand over hand, and crossing arms compared to my rally where I didn't need to take my hands off the wheel much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT3AtACuIAo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPfiVYq89wo