I think this topic needed it's own thread.

I look at something like H4 (which as drastically dwindled and in some areas died) yet something like ITA still is quite popular both locally and nationally. I theorize this is so because unlike Honda Challenge, ITA allows other cars (like RWD options), just as PTE does. PT looks like a brilliant class by NASA btw.

I'm looking for feedback. Feedback that would make the argument of: Why do you race what you race? How did you come to that conclusion? Have you changed classes since you started, what was more fun? What does your cost-to-fun analysis look like?

Other questions for people who live in NASA regions (which I don't).


1: Why did H4 (in NASA areas) have a massive exodus to H2?
1a: What was the difference in cost, both to build and maintain a front running H2 car for those who used to run H4?
1b: Anyone like racing in H4 and switched to H2 regret anything about it?

2: Why H2 or H4 at all?
2a: Isn't racing different types of cars in the same class fun? Same question applies to people running a spec series such as SM.
2b: Do any H2 drivers compete in other classes with non-Hondas and have as much fun?

3: Has NASA Honda Challenge been growing over the last couple years or has the numbers declined?
3a: If H2 has grown but only at the cost of H4 shrinking, has there been growth overall?

4: Can anyone give a relatively detailed breakdown of H2 costs. Build costs, acquisition of parts cost, maintenance costs, wear item cost ext.?

 

I'll try and answer your questions without spending a ton of time on it as some of these questions can be quite time consuming.

1: Why did H4 (in NASA areas) have a massive exodus to H2?
I think it was because some of those racers had been doing H4 long enough that they were ready to try something faster, and thus, the H2 changes were a perfect opportunity for them.

1a: What was the difference in cost, both to build and maintain a front running H2 car for those who used to run H4?
It depended on the car really. The cheapest car to convert from H4 to H2 was a LS H4 integra! If you had a Civic or CRX, the costs were mostly because of the "swap".

An H2 car will be more expensive to build over an H4 car, but not by a ton! There are some things that you can do to the H2 car that you can't on the H4, mainly brakes, CF hood, and some motor mods. That's about it though.

1b: Anyone like racing in H4 and switched to H2 regret anything about it?
The cars are more highly strung and do require additional maintenance, but they are also way faster to which is fun!!

2: Why H2 or H4 at all?
Because Honda Challenge really is the best place in the country to race a Honda/Acura product club level wise. Factory support, awesome contingency support, well prescribed class.

2a: Isn't racing different types of cars in the same class fun? Same question applies to people running a spec series such as SM.
Yes and no. Can be fun for sure. I really enjoy racing HC though because the racing is so close.

2b: Do any H2 drivers compete in other classes with non-Hondas and have as much fun?
Not with my H2 car. I guess that's what you are asking though.

3: Has NASA Honda Challenge been growing over the last couple years or has the numbers declined?
Overall, the class has grown in the last 2 years.

3a: If H2 has grown but only at the cost of H4 shrinking, has there been growth overall?
There are lots of new people joining H2 all the time. In the beginning of the growth of H2, most of the guys were H4 converts, but that was only the beginning. The growth is now coming from people wanting to hop into H2 from the start!

4: Can anyone give a relatively detailed breakdown of H2 costs. Build costs, acquisition of parts cost, maintenance costs, wear item cost ext.?
That's a really loaded question as it depends how much money you really want to spend. You can do an H2 car for as little as $5k! (Anyone serious, I have an option for you). Will that $5k car run at the front? Not likely because HC2 is very competitive. You can spend upwards of $50K building a car if you want, but that's also not typical! Most people build their H2 cars for around $10-$15K using really nice stuff and parts. You can purchase cars all day long in the $7-10K range as well.

To race the car, it's likely a $1k-$2k per weekend affair! It can be done cheaper, but it's not usual and sacrifices have to be made!

All said and done, in Socal, we have a fantastic group of HC racers which are like an extended family to all of us. We party at the track, race, have a great time, and look forward to doing it all again the next month! That's really why it's so fun and keeps all of us coming back for more!

 

This is all quoted from truth!
never seen a group so dedicated to helping eachother out and keeping their car count up.
Not uncommon to see all nighters in effect to keep their car counts up for the next day.

 

what prkiller wrote is pretty spot on.
out here we have h5 and h4 guys and gals switch to h2 along with some h1 switching down to h2 (north east h1 car count is thin). but the group of Honda Challenge drivers are the best, most friendly group anywhere. North east, Mid Atlantic, South East or West Coast. Everyone wants to beat the other ON THE TRACK, so they will help everyone get there.

As for costs, don't mind my rants about my chitbox. H2 is more expensive than h3-5 but its not terrible and thats where the car counts are. so the racing is much better.
Quite honestly, i spoke to anther h2 driver in my reigon about car prep. and the 4 top guys up here have cars at differant levels of prep, setups are all different and they all still drive on top of eachother every weekend.

 

longevity of the B20 vs. B16? im trying to build a case.

 

well, you'd have to ask prkiller and edo (b16 and ls) for real world examples. in theory, the rod/stroke ratio of the b16 means u can rev it to the moon or as high as itr cams will make power. the b18b and b20 don't need to rev due to their strokes. so less beating up of rods and bearings.

 

They actually seem to be very similar.
The two main cars we run with Croiset Racing are powered by a B16 and a B20.

I think they are pretty evenly matched on longevity.
The B20 is an easier motor to drive though. More forgiving.

 

is it worth switching out rodbolts, or reinforcing the bottom end with say a girdle? (can't remember if the girdle is legal off the top of my head)
please direct me elsewhere if there is already a thread about this or, you want it to stay a little more on topic.

 

girdle is not legal if the engine does not have one.
rod bolts you can do and if your rebuilding, its probably a good idea to either use new honda ones or arp's. excessive revs stretch rods and rod bolts.

 

Mark, are you going H2?

 

from the last time i talked to him about the given subject i think he would rather go the w2w route before tt. he has access to a car too for comp school, just off speculation but i believe it to be highly probable.

with that said he needs some motor work undone. lol.

 

ultimately that is the plan. I'm currently assisting Ed Villaroya in his build. He's new to hondas, so im helping him get the car set up. I have been trying to push for the B16 (its a 00 SI) but he wants a cheaper solution to power regaurdless of the weight penalty. This was all based off of his first race against Know Fear. The B16 is 100% oem (original) internally, with bolt ons and the car is 2390 race weight. over weight and under powered. I understand the B20's are a dime a dozen. but is it going to be as cost effective in the long run if we have to keep replacing motors due to their lack of resilience against race abuse?

personally i would like to get the R into H2, but to do so i need more safety equipment, race rubber and an OEM motor. oh yeh a comp license wouldn't hurt either. Other than that, im ready to go.

 

I'd run H2 as well if my car (94 Prelude with stock H22) had not been killed by rule changes to add tons of weight. Now has to weigh over 2700 pounds! Not sure of the reason for this. Mike Lock did very well in Norcal with this car, but it was no faster than the B18C5 Civics. I'm racing USTCC the rest of the season and then STU with SCCA next year. Some of you guys with Hondas that have not made up your mind about a class should consider STU.

 

What changes are relevant to take a car from H2 spec to STU?

 

None if you don't want to. Many H2 cars can be competitive as is, but many H1 cars are legal for STU as well. But typical H1 cars would fare better. H1 is not really an option for me, as H1 is dead in California, and Honda Challenge in general is dead in Norcal, where I am located.

 

I've had this internal debate for the sake of the Conference I race in. I keep seeing these huge fields of Novices and it's good but none of them are showing up with Hondas. We don't really have a class that allows "swapped" Honda's to be a consistently competitive option, however I don't think a Honda only class is the right solution.

I want Conference to appeal to the people who want to go racing with a B or K swapped chassis but it is my opinion that whatever class is potentially created to suit these H2-esque cars should also include a large variety of other cars as well.

Every race weekend there's so many cars out racing with only 1 or 2 cars in the class and I don't see the point. With only minor rule changes and minor car changes many of these classes could be consolidated and the racing could be a lot more fun. So why create a 'niche' class for people who've built H2 cars? Go bigger picture, create a class for H2 cars that fits several others. Right now it appears that STL (originated from SF region I believe) is a great alternative.

 

This has already been discussed to death on the NASAForums. You are right, the car did very well with a BONE STOCK junkyard engine!
If you'd like to know more, just look on the NASA forums. You'll find your answer there.

STU/H2? Um, ok.
That's a totally different topic and completely out of the league of anyone considering an H4 car!

Lets try sticking to the original topic for the OP.

 

A fast honda race car (normally with an engine swap) can be run in H1, PTA, STU and be legal and competative for all 3 classes. For alittle less $$ and a just a weee bit slower you can run H2 and PTB. In H2 trim STU and H1 can still be fun from time to time but your going to have a hard time keeping up.

I say start off with what ever gets you out there the soonest and cost the least. You can allways jump up to a faster class in years to come.

 

For reference, my B20 lasted something like 5 years of heavy tracking. I put it in the car after Sander used it a bit, and he pulled it out of whatever basically junkyard car. To my knowledge, other than general maintenance (timing belt, oil changes, etc.) the only things done were ITR oil pump, ARP rodbolts, and a Mugen oil pan. I replaced rings and bearings at one point because it was smoking a good bit, but still ran on the ???-mile pistons and rods. Just treat it right and there shouldn't be any reliability issues. The B20-VTEC stuff gets hairy, but mostly from guys spinning them to 9000rpm or whatever.

You could consider a B18B also, and run slightly lighter if that was an option. Those motors are also very cheap and durable.