I spent the whole afternoon at the track.

I talked to my competitor/friend Joe Harlan with the 240SX about next year. He's trying to put together a T2 deal on a new Z-Car, but plans to run RS in the 240 regardless. We discussed possible changes to the RS rules to make our cars a little more even without opening the floodgates to outright domination by anyone (else). I happened by later when he was taking it up with one of the SCCA stewards (Skip). We all want to make RS more popular and competitive next year, so hopefully we can work something out.

I told Joe that I have a Plan-B. I've been physically impaired for about a week, and so I've taken to researching B-Series motor options - from B16A's with B17C crank and 84mm bore to some form of the B20 Frankenstein (2.2 litre Dart Block/Crower 95mm crank). My ultimate goal would be a RELIABLE 240whp - that means 2 seasons of uninterupted service. I'm going to have to talk to some of my favorite people about this. I talked to Arnie Loyning about it a little - they've been developing a B16 for a Formula Atlantic customer (they had to hack it alot to adapt it to the chassis - glad I don't need any of that), so they've learned a little about these motors (they have massive experience with the common Toyota Atlantic motor).

As such a motor isn't legal for RS, I'd be looking at running SPU. That means adding a fuel cell at a minimum. The class has virtually no rules, leaving me free indulge all of my sick ITR fantasies. The group SPU runs in is interesting, so it's a viable plan in terms of fun.

Anybody have any well informed opinions on the realities of B-series motors? I know Shawn Bota has first hand experience. Interested in sharing that experience with us Shawn? I've been truly spoiled by the B18C5 - "I just want more power". Course, if that brings with it gearbox trouble and more CV trouble, well, that's got to be thought about pretty seriously.

Oh, yeah, Plan-C: (it's always something similar) Ralt RT-5 rocker car with a Mazda Rotary. Plan-C is like the doomsday device for my life. Part of my psyche looks and sounds like Dr. Strangelove. Oddly, I listen to him more than I should.

Scott, who doesn't know why he's talking to you guys about it....you're dealing with alot of issues too.....

 

They *reportedly* have CR-VTEC (B20 frankenstein motors) available for import from Japan for $5-6k, completely ready and supposedly reliable. They're supposed to make 230-250 hp at the wheels, and from the pictures I've seen they're very professionally put together. This was a long time ago though, so it'd take some research to find out if they're still available.

And I don't believe there is such an engine as the B17C, if that wasn't a typo:

 

Not trying to follow you around Scott.
The one RS rule that keeps at least three Honda people I know of out of the class, has something to do with the factory service manual. Granted, I haven't had the need to read the RS rules completely, but from what understand, it "almost" allows the Honda hybrid guys in. Meaning if you wanted to put together a hatch like mine and stuff it with your motor, tranny and suspension, there's apparently one line of the RS rules (shop manual or something) that keeps it out (and probably lots of other even funkier hybrids). Otherwise, this car gets thrown to the wolves in SPU, or worse yet.... ITE

 

I will try to get this issue into consideration by those responsible for the 2003 rules. Since the core of the rules is displacement and valve count to determine weight, it seems to me that reasonable people could see a way thru problems with hybrids. Hey! Maybe we can even get me an RS legal 240whp 2.2 litre at my current weight!

Scott, who's losing track of reality....oh, damn, it just set back in: tomorrows Monday....

 

there is a B17..

 

I didn't know of a B17C, but I do know the 92-93 GSR came with a B17A.

Jason-
who would still eventually like to own a 1st gen GSR

 

b16 owns j00 all

 

scott:
I'll see if I can get Shawn to chime in here later

Here's the complete B20TC vtec that's available from Feel's Honda Twincam in Japan


there are two choices:
1) 230hp = ~ $4800
2) 250hp = ~ $6000

 

 

the only reality ive been faced with and seen from other experiences is that the stock oiling system is not good enough for circuit racing. this is not only in LSvtec motors but vtec motors as well. in some corners where i get enough Gs, ive experienced vtec coming in and out. this is because not enough pressure or volume of oil is overcoming the amount of Gs exerted on it. a vtec motor or not, this happens when the oil system is stock. im afraid that this is not just seen in the head and that the bearings might be taking a hit as well.

like ive told a friend before, before coming out to race hard, increase your oil pressure and get a baffeled pan!

besides the oiling system, the motor seems to hold up really well...

 

Shawn,

I've run the Mugen baffled pan from the beginning and always overfill the oil by half a quart. We don't have any sweepers around here that quite compare to Willows last two turns, but at Pacific Raceways Big Indy I haven't starved enough to drop out of Vtec.

So why did you abandon your B20 motor and go back to the LSVtec?

Scott, who is finding out that the people with the most experience with these funny motors are drag racers and they don't know what will live on a Road Course....

 

I have yet to ever have my oil pressure budge from 80-85 psi (I forget where it is) while on the track. It hits it at about 3k rpm, and stays there. No bouncing of the needle.

In fact, I'm probably going to ditch my oil pressure sender because it's the most likely part to break off and send oil everywhere. Ask me how I know... I'll probably put an idiot pressure sender (20 psi) and light somewhere.

Warren

 

#1 the b20 i blew up because of impropper fuel and the cylinder walls all cracked. d'oh! that was my fault. i could have made it last i think.

#2 you will not see your oil pressure drop in the head unless you have the oil pressure sender at the head instead of the stock location.

 

I talked to Ted at Golden Eagle and he said the thing they see the most of is cracked B20 sleeves.

I talked to some other people and they've spent alot of money failing to get resleeved motors to live on Road Courses.

I starting to think that the stock B18C5 Type-R motor, with it's less than perfect Rod Ratio, delivers a pretty amazing combination of decent power and outstanding reliability. Duh. Maybe my problem is wanting more.

Scott, who want's to drive a fast race car....not work on it's motor...."I only race cars because gardening is more expensive than most people think"....

 

Yoshi,

Any way we could find out how short the fuse is on one of these Feel's motors?

What reason would we have to believe that such a motor could live when the typical B20Vtec's around here cannot?

Scott, who people think has much more money than he actually has....he certainly can't afford a meaningful engine development program...."it's all the broken parts that get you....especially the expensive ones".....

 

I know nothing of the RS rules, but...Are you allowed cams and adjustable gears? Maybe that's be a good power adder for you, without turning the thing into a grenade.

I'm personally a big fan of factory stock at this point. I'm on something like weekend 46 with my original B18C1 - that's hard to fault.

--Karl, who will be sending Honda of America a Christmas card this year...

 

Karl,

Loosely speaking, the Engine rules are free to any mod listed in the SCCA GCR for Production Classes. In the unlikely event of an engine protest the only things that could really cause trouble would be Forced Induction or Nitrous (big surprise that huh?) or displacement.

Scott, who likewise doesn't like grenades....and venerates Honda Motor....

 

In that case, I would argue strongly for a B18C5 bottom end, a set of cams, and maybe some ECU work. Wouldn't quite be as fast as a good B20, but it would also not crack, melt, oil starve (much) or otherwise commit an untimely suicide. Put an oil cooler on it if you haven't done so already. If for no other reason than you pick up another quart or two of oil capacity, which is a good thing.

So far, it has struck me that the hybrid builders who are doing really bleeding-edge stuff are having more problems than those who simply bolt in an internally-unmolested b-block motor, maybe work on the head a little bit, and go race.

I suspect that there's a difference - maybe a small one - between "it fits" and "it works."

 

My pressure sender was at the remote filter mount.

Warren

 

I know guys that work in the shop that has been working on the Dart big block with the guys from Dart. The first car it is going in has a big turbo on it which broke a low compression built and posted B20 block before it hit 1000 miles. If it survives that car I will let you guys know. I have spoken to the owner of the shop and the Honda master tech that works there, and the motor should have a 1.75 RS ratio at 2 litres. If memory serves, it will be a closed deck, sand cast design, which they claim will have sufficient water channels. They say they will build up to 2.3 liters, but will prefer 2.0 in even a NA application for greater reliablity. I'm expecting a built shortblock to cost 4-5k depending on build specs. I'll stick with stock Honda for now, but that might just be my thin wallet talking.

 

That's the one I was thinking of.

And yes there is a B17A, but I don't think there's a B17C.

 

Oh Scott,

Tell Joe to e-mail me. I am really close to going back to T2 next year and I am coming to the RoseCup and Double National at Pacific. I think you should get a Baby Grand painted up like the Big E #3 car. Those Porsche guys will really hate you then.

Victor Penner

 

What? I'm supposed to have Joe e-mail you so he can talk you into running RS next year. And just how long will that last?

Scott, who Victor has pegged correctly....it's about making Porsche drivers hate me...

 

I, like Karl, have decided that factory stock with a few head mods is the way to go. I got 6 very nasty and abusive years from the motor before it's first rebuild, and all it really needed then was new rings and bearings (precautionary as they were fine).

Never dropped out of VTEC, Never oil starved, and holds a consistent 80psi of pressure (from the remote filter).
Knocking seriously on wood here.

I need more power for next year. Bling Bling Brinson continues to murder me on the straights and der ubermotor (Shultz) continues to amaze me by hanging with me in a straight line with it's 130K miles.
I'll be making sure all the valves are straight first (missed a shift earlier in the year and have one cylinder looking iffy), then I'm going for the Unorthodox billet pulley set (I keep hearing 5 to 8 real HP is available here).

I guess my point is that I, like scott, prefer driving the car to working on it. I'd like to go faster as well, but I'm so pleased with the motor's curren't reliability that I'm very hesitant to do anything serious with it. I plan to concentrate on nickle and diming the speed by continued weight reduction and bolt on mods.

Well, if cams were legal, I'd likely go there. Jack's car had some serious shizzle this year.

 

I've never dropped out of VTEC, I've never heard a bad noise, and I've been wailing on this car for 7 years now (the total, BTW, is 46 track weekends). Hell, it didn't even have an oil cooler until weekend 42. It used a little over half a quart of oil with me and RacerBowie pounding on it all weekend at Roebling. God Bless Mobil 1 (since 979 miles - yes, I kept a record of that).

When it explodes...and I'm sure it will...it will do so in spectacular fashion.

Those high-paid Honda engineers know what they're doing. A lot more so than, say, me. So when my mill finally lets go, I'll most likely get another factory stock engine and run the poor thing until it melts.

Stick with the Honda stuff Scott, if you don't want to be turning wrenches on it every waking hour that you're not working or racing. They got it right, or damn close to it, in the engineering meetings at Honda.