I just got my car aligned at firestone the other day, and while looking at the print out I saw somethings that looked different to what I have seen on the net, and have seen people say.

My questions are, what do you guys prefer, or reccomend?

They said they do custom alignments, and it I did get the lifetime, so playing with different numbers isnt a big deal. I currently do not have a camber kit. I have about a 1 finger gap on 195-55-15's.

My front is
LEFT- -1.8 camber 0.07 Toe
RIGHT- -1.6 camber 0.07 Toe

Rear
LEFT- -2.6 camber 0.14 Toe
RIGHT- -2.8 Camber 0.10 Toe

I am going to try the washer trick to get a little less negative camber in the rear. I would like to just get it into OEM spec of -2.0 in rear.

Car is my DD, so tire wear is somewhat of a worry for me, however it does get pushed on the back roads.

Thanks in advance guys!

 

OEM spec is -2° camber in the rear?!

 

horrible, who in their right mind would toe in the front, they should be bitch slapped

those camber numbers also seem reversed but without seeing the car i suppose it's possible. the washer trick and longer bolts will get you to -1deg pretty easy

i would be irate if someone tried to toe in the front of my car, i seriously think it feels like driving crosseyed, zero is bad enough

 

 

Yep, that's what my paper say's.
-2.0° - 0°.

May have worded it wrong, ---2.0° is still in oe spec.

 

Really? I havent noticed anything weird feelings while driving it, then again, I havent really pushed it hard yet.

I take it you like toe out in front? If so, how much?

 

EK's are supposed to have a bit more camber in the rear because of the longer control arm.

NEGATIVE CAMBER IS NOT A BAD THING. it does not cause tire wear.

what causes tire wear is toe.

and i think thats a lot of toe in at the REAR. i dunno, maybe EK's need that too in the rear but i wouldnt think so.

the toe in at the front is typical, but i dont prefer it. i like a little toe out for performance. with toe in, youre scrubbing the tires a bit for extra straight line stability. i believe its toe in with a lowered set up is what causes tire wear at the inside. so i would avoid it.

 

Thanks tyson.

I understand toe is the true killer of tires, not camber. Learned this the hard way

I am not really trying to 0 the camber out, just get a little less in the rear, possibly from -2.6/-2.8 to -2.0 or just a little closer.


So your reccomending a bit of toe out? My question is how much? And how will that effect my tire wear?

is that just for the front? how do you like the rear of your cars?

 

a little toe in at the rear. about the same as your fronts.

reverse the toe in the front.

and one washer in the rear would be fine. just be VERY careful about those bolts into the chassis, they cross thread very easily for some reason... at least on EF's they do. hand tighten them until youre SURE theyre on right.

 

Ok, thanks.

I tried it once before and I wasnt able to get the bolt to thread with the washer.
Ill deffinetly try to be careful next time.

I think the front sway bar bolts going into the car are the same way, 3 went in easy, 1 I really had to try to get it to tighten down. But then again, maybe it was just dirt and crap in the holes?....


Im going to go give it a shot, and give firestone a call to see if they can get me in today.

Will there be any uneven tire were with that amount of toe out?

 

Toe out is what causes the inside edge to wear. Think about it, if the tires are pointing away from the centerline of the car, the inside edge takes the brunt of the scrubbing on the pavement.

And yes, 96-00 Civics have a much steeper camber curve than other Civics and Integras. Using washers, or replacement rear upper arms (with turnbuckle adjustment like the front tie rods) can get the rear camber dialed in where you want it.

And I want to say it's usually better to have a bit more negative camber in the front than in the rear, if you want to reduce the chance of understeering.

 

So, your saying dont toe out the front end? how much wear are really talking about if I were to have them toe out the car?

I hate understeer, however I have a 26mm front sway, 13mm rear. 10k front springs and 6k rears, so understeering is a fact of life here. lol

 

I'm not real sure on that. All I know is that a typical Honda goes toe out when you lower the car (tie rods pull in as they swing up, making front of tires point out), and if you don't have the toe corrected it will eat your tires for lunch.

It's going to be a compromise, though, since toe out is usually preferred for performance. You'll have to balance it between tire wear and handling performance.

My car is strictly daily driving these days, and I need my tires to last as long as possible. Therefore I usually have my front toe set to zero or even a slight touch of toe-in.

 

That is kind of wear I am stuck. I really need these tires to last right now. I may not have a job come the 1st. If this wasnt the case, i wouldnt really worry about having uneven tire wear.


When i got my car alignened my toe in front was -0.20 on LEFT and -0.56 RIGHT. The rear was 0.14 LEFT and RIGHT was 0.03, with a little less toe then that and some camber it took roughly 2 years to destroy my falken Ziex tires. (inside is bald)

 

Someone once set my car to 0° camber and 0° toe all around... so unpredictable. I was rather mad at the shop that did that. Camber then just a smidget of toe in at the rear for some stability.

 

that's right, 0 toe and 0 camber equals a slow nervous car.

rear toe in has no measurable effect on tire wear as long as it's not excessive. running .05 to .10 in on each side won't kill the outside wall even with 2deg of camber

toe out in the front will fill the inside edge with 2deg of camber but the amount of kill is related to the amount of out and also how you drive.

you can go up to .03 out on each side in the front and have only a very very small amount if any of inside wear. at 0 you have none but also miss the increase in turn in that small amount of toe helps with

another note, softer suspended cars can get away with 0 toe in the front much easier than stiff cars can. why? the suspension toes out as it compresses. soft cars already are starting to toe out as you turn even if they are not statically set this way. stiff cars do this to a greatly reduced sense.

on my own integra i have two sets of tires and wheels. yoke ad08's for summer and hankook icebears for winter. both 205 50 15.

winter tire setting is

front -.02 out each side

rear .05 in each side

summer is -.05 out each side in the front with the same .05 in out back

if i was going to autocross i would probably set the front at -.12 out each side and keep the rear the same.

 

Hmmm, I can deal with a very slight amount of wear, im sure the tires treadwear number would have something to do with it?

Im not 100% on mine but I am pretty sure the are 320.

 

which is pretty hard

actually the treadwear rating doesn't influence even wear. basically my suggestion is experiment between 0 front toe and -.03 out each side or -.05-.06 total front toe. see which one you like more. if your car is soft or around stock height you'll probably want to stay around 0

220 is generally what i consider the cutoff for a performance street tire. harder than this just turns into a plain ole street tire. some are better than others though. the yoke s drive is hard as a rock and a good tire.

 

Ok, I really aperciate it.......
I will try and get the car in tomorow, and I will post the results.

What would suggestion for the rear be? Or just leave it alone?


The car isn't stock height, 1 finger gap on 55's with 10kf 6k rear, they are linear as well. Stock shocks for now.

 

with rates that mismatched you will DEFINITELY benefit from toe out BUT keep in mind the more you have the more it will waste the inside edge.

i would run the front -.03 out each side and the rear .05 in each side. you could leave the rear as it is if you want, not a big deal. running the front .03 out will quicken the car up some without totally killing the inside edge.

this also should be done with you sitting in the car. if you're out of it the number will change around .02 the second you hop in. don't try and guess either, just sit in the car with the wheel straight, the car will track better if it's aligned with you in it.

 

Yea, my spring rates are really mismatched, Thanks Skunk2
I had the chance to drop down to a 430lb in front but now I cannot find the FS thread anywhere....

I have been giving it some thought, and Im just going to play with different numbers and see what I like. This time I deffinetly will be in the car when it gets aligned next time.

Thank you very much! If anyone else has something they would like to add, or even the #'s that they like please post.

Thanks guys

 

you have the right idea, also a 430 front would be a much better match with your rears

 

That or I will stick the 430lb in rear.

Thanks to some snow last night I doubt ill be able to get out and play today

 

Ok, im heading to the garage in a minute, to do the washer trick. When I take it back in for a alignment, how would it affect my car if I have them set the toe in the rear closer to 0 or at least match the front? Or is it just fine where its at?

I have thought about it, and im just going leave the front end alone until summer time, when I replace all the bushings, etc.


Also, I was reading about switch the front UCA's around making the car funnier to drive? Is there any cons to doing so? Increase in bumpsteer?

Thanks for all the help guys, you have helped me quite a bit, and hopefully this thread helps others to

 

don't run rear toe at zero, it will slow you down anywhere you're going over 40mph. some guys use to get more rear rotation in autocross but it's not an ideal street or track setting. toe the rear in .05 each side. that's the bottom end of honda spec and it works well.

the front is where you need to experiment. my vote is a minor amount of toe out something like -.03 each side