I was pretty excited to have the privilege of being featured in Hybrid Racing's blog. It's the first time the car has ever really been featured outside of general Redline Time Attack event recaps. Anyway, I thought I'd share:

http://www.hybrid-racing.com/blog/rsx-time-attack-car/

 

Congrats I like your paint scheme

 

Car is sick! Congrats.

 

Car is good looking.

But im confused I thought you had to have a fire suit and hans if you have a roll bar or cage?

 

another thumbs up to the paint. shoulda had black rear rims too.

 

Thanks! Actually, for TT events and Redline Time Attack Enthusiast & Street Tire classes it isn't necessary unless you're participating in actual wheel to wheel competition. Nonetheless, they're both things that I should have, but just haven't had the budget for. I plan on doing a legit cage fabrication, possibly this offseason, and will also acquire a suite and HANS device. Even if it isn't compulsory, it's certainly a good idea to do regardless.

The car actually hasn't changed since 2006, due to my incredibly low budget, so it's about time that some additional work goes into the car.

Haha, we actually thought about doing that. Would have been interesting. It's funny, the only reason why the paint scheme ended up that way was because we couldn't afford to actually paint the whole car, haha. I just painted the front bumper and fenders. The rest is actually just vinyl...but to make sure it didn't look too janky, we actually color-matched the paint to the vinyl.

 

nice work and nice car. Love the front end.
How do you like the J's racing Roll center adjuster?
Do you think it helped at all?
Did you do a bunch of upgrades along with it or was this an upgrade that you had some track time before and after only it and maybe something else minor was changed?

 

It actually did. The car was riding on JICs for awhile before and the overall ride was just VERY inconsistent. We did add superpro polyurethane spherical bushings at the same time, but I noticed a pretty significant difference. After we swapped those out, the handling was just a lot more predictable. The car also seemed to respond better to variations in the track such as curbing, bumps, etc.

 

cool. Thanks for the input. That donut bushing is just really odd which you prolly felt the most difference from. The 8th gen civics run them too and once I decide I'm going to mod my car past SCCA STX rules, I'll likely install the spherical bearings I have for the donut bushing and a roll center adjuster as well.

 

Cool stuff! I watched you video at Autobahn. Sheesh you must have some stiff spring rates! When I was there with my RSX with RSDs it didn't look half that bouncy.

 

Yeah, they're pretty stiff. They work amazing on tracks that aren't quite as bumpy, but it gets kinda tricky on other tracks, especially when I've got a pretty hardcore LSD up front. The worst was trying to fight the LSD and a bumpy track when I had lost power steering, although it wasn't AS bad after a few laps.

The fronts are 787 lb/in and rears are 1012 lb/in...so they're pretty hefty. My guess is that they'd do better with a slick or r-comp with a little more forgiving sidewall, but for the most part they're okay.

One of the biggest thing is that I need to invest in (besides more power and less weight) is a better seat. For one, I never "grew" into the XL seat size that I anticipated needing, and two, the leg bolstering isn't the best. So when I go over bumps, my foot has a tendency to unnecessarily (and improperly) modulate the thottle. My butt muscles get a good workout trying to keep the right foot planted, haha. That's probably part of the problem on corner exit...and bumpy straights.

The most interesting thing I learned (the hard way) was how much the rear wing helps when you set up a car to rotate. This year's rules changed and my wing didn't fit the "box" in terms of prescribed depth (endplates were too long). We decided to experiment with taking the wing off to see if less drag would allow me to get more speed in the straights and the sweepers at Autobahn. After going sideways at about 90mph at the kink, constantly countersteering in the sweepers and even losing the back end under heavy braking on the bumpy braking zone in the back straight, I felt it was much wiser just to get a dremel and trim the endplates...much to the dismay of JDM fanboys everywhere, lol.

I'm sure I could have gotten much better with more seat time sans wing, but we didn't have enough time to test and adjust things accordingly since I was teched in for the competiton late in the day on Saturday. When I did manage some clean wingless laps later on, I was still about 2 seconds off the pace, since my corner exit speeds were way less (couldn't sustain the momentum) and my straightline speeds were totally negated by that as well. Interesting stuff. I felt I could finally justify the gigantic "ricer" mod on the car though, although I could have done so without nearly destroying a set of pants and underwear, lol.

 

Yeah, it is amazing how much more rear grip wings can add! My track car is an S2000 now - I haven't driven it with the wing off yet, but I can still tell it makes a huge difference just from how the car rotates a lot at slow speed but is balanced at high speed.

So, do you have any idea how much of a difference the LSD made in terms of lap times? I have a supercharger on the RSX, but on track it was like I couldn't use any of that power until the car was pointed almost straight at corner exit - couldn't get on the throttle early at all...

You're in Kenosha, eh? I'm just over in Madison. You should do some of the NASA events next year!

 

To give you an idea of how much I liked the LSD, I was pretty much ready to ditch the RSX because I was so fed up with it. The LSD made it a completely different car. No lie.

How long have you been running in NASA for? I drove NASA in '07 when I was first thought about getting into time attack. The car needed so many minor tweaks (in my opinion) to get it to a really drivable point. Granted, those small changes dramatically changed the car, but I think I'd actually be in TTS for TT classing even with the modest mods I've done. The car's lap times are competitive with TTB and TTA on a few tracks, but it wouldn't be a consistent front runner. Then again, I run street tires so it's hard to say. I have thought about prepping the car for PT to do some W2W, but we'll see. I'd love to run NASA for fun though.

For some comparison, I had pretty much the same car in terms of power, sway bars, etc. Basically, I just swapped to slightly better dampers and springs, added the wing and bumper, but also (and most imporantly) the LSD, 5.06 final drive, clutch and flywheel. My laptimes at Gingerman went from mid to low 1:40s. I took a break from driving because I was just having tons of problems with the car and finances. When I went back to Gingerman in 2008, my times dropped down to my fastest of 1:32.9...and most of my lap times (once street tires got a lil greasy) were in the 1:33-1:34 range. Granted, I think I got a little better at driving by that time, too...but still, the improvements were almost laughable.

EDIT: just went back and watched my videos - my first year back at Gingerman was with NASA in 2007...ran pretty much 1:38s - 1:40s

 

R your shocks double adjustable?

 

single adjustable, I believe - rebound and compression are adjusted simultaneously

that's the crummy thing is that I've been so broke and busy with work that I never got to simply get out and really play around too much with the suspension. I'd love to spend some serious time doing some analysis and lapping when it wasn't always in a competition setting

 

I started track driving in 2009. Did 4 events with NASA. Then this year so far I've done 1 MVP tracktime event and 6 NASA events. So, primarliy I only ever run with NASA. I bought the S2000 this summer as my TT car and have been running it in TTC. Because of the supercharger, the rsx would have been classed out of being competitive, which was the reason for buying the S2000.

You're right about the TT classing - cars that have been built for other classes often get screwed when it comes to fitting into a TT class. For example, at Autobahn a few weeks ago, the best TTC time (not mine) was 1:37.5ish, TTB was actually about the same, or perhaps a second slower actually. I forget where TTA was, possibly a 1:34???

Yeah, I just got fed up with the RSX. The level of mods and money it would have taken to make it competitive would have meant that I could no longer comfortably use it as my daily driver. I love the s2k as a track car. It feels SO much better (than my rsx) on track. Much more refined, controlled, and stable feeling.

Feel like driving at Putnam in a week and a half? I think there is still openings in HPDE 3, 4, and TT... eh, eh? *_*

 

Hmm, my best at Autobahn was just at an AMS-hosted track day when we were all just goofing around. Was running in the 1:38s for most of the day. Yeah, I don't care how sticky the tires are...my underpowered car would never get into the 1:34s as things stand now, haha.

Yeah, the S2000 is pretty much ready to go, or at least bearable on the track right out of the box. I still keep my eyes open for one every now and then. I might be up for Putnam...although not 100% sure. I was let go from my job last week Friday, and may actually be moving out to the Bay Area. It would be nice to get back on the track again, plus I've never driven Putnam.

 

Just an fyi, I think the registration will fill up today or tomorrow or sometime very soon. It's already mostly sold out. I really like Putnam Park, by the way.

I just saw an S2000 posted up for sale on the NASA forums yesterday here in Madison WI. Sounds like a mostly track prepped car. I guess the right side of the car has damage, but it comes with all the replacement panels....
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=37067

 

putnam is a blast.

 

I've followed this car back when I saw it on ClubRSX. Well deserved feature and I hope we just get to see more of it. I've moved on to a Miata, but I still have the RSX around. I look at it as a back-up track car if the Miata gives me problems. I see the Miata as cheaper to go the same speed as the RSX on the tracks around me (tires mainly).

I can relate to getting fed up with the RSX front chassis.. with 10k springs up front, EM2 25.4 (had a long primary tubed header before) sway and RCAs, it is handling the best it ever has, but I have stopped trying to solve the front geometry issues. Have you guys collected any data? For example, people have thought to get the tie rod arms flat at static height, but the more I learn about it, the more I tend to disagree. (I currently think they would ideally be perpendicular to the angle of the strut to minimize toe change).

 

Yup pretty much. Also keep in mind though that the control arm will push the bottom of the strut inwards or outwards as it moves, so depending on the angle the control arm is at (your ride height basically), you might not want the tie rod exactly perpendicular to the kingpin axis.

 

I'll actually have to take a look at where the tie rod ends are. I know they're not perfectly flat by any means. We didn't actually invert them the way that a lot of people do, and I don't think it's exactly perpendicular to the strut angle, but it's pretty close.

The one thing that we had to do per Redline's rules was raise the ride height to meet the 3.5" rule. While the bodywork was nowhere near 3.5", the stupid b-pipe was killing us. However, that being said, raising the ride height slightly actually gave the car some improvements in overall handling. It had a more neutral feel with more predictable rotation. I think the biggest thing was that there was just a lot more precision to be had in my steering inputs, which was great.

According to most of the people who've driven the RSX, it pretty much sounds like I'm the only person alive who has come to terms with the front geometry, haha. That being said, it is still somewhat limiting. The bounciness is obnoxious, but it beats the alternative. The nice thing about the Challenge suspension is that the rears seemed to be valved better and have more travel than most other aftermarket parts, which actually seems to help out the predictability of the front end. I did like the mounting brackets on the RG N1 coilovers I had better, because the steering arms seemed to attach at a MUCH better angle. If we could revise that on the Challenge coilovers, I think we'd probably be pretty confident in boasting the best bang for the buck in a coilover design.

Here's the kicker; we've gathered virtually NO data because of how things played out. My commercial banking job was far too hectic for me to get out of work for anything, and therefore the car only saw the track ONCE this season...and that was at Autobahn. Secondly, the entire budget was pretty much sacrificed to afford me and my wife's wedding back at home (South Africa)...conveniently timed during the World Cup. Hopefully next year will be much better, because I think we're on the cusp of making some real progress, but we just need a little more time and funding.

Too bad Redline pulled out of the Midwest and East Coast. We've got a great relationship with Bridgestone, so we may be competing for fun next year in NASA on street tires in TT. That ought to be interesting.

 

I take it you have read speedengineer's suspension analysis of the DC5?

 

This is was Realtime did with their RSX's. The steering arm was threaded onto the shock body thus being infinitely adjustable. If my memory serves me right they aimed to keep the tie rod perpendicular to the strut at static ride height. They also completely re-designed the rear suspension so Im not sure how well their front end setup would transfer over to a car with stock rear pickup points, but Im sure it would be a good starting point.

I need to correct my tie rod angle slightly according to this theory, but I think for any application those inverted tie rod ends are overkill. Not to mention the shotty design that everyone seems to have problems with. A good solid alternative is the 0857 replacement central mounting bracket, which moves the inboard tie rod mount upwards about an inch. Something similar to that could easily be custom fabbed to whatever specification you might need.

 

I only read someone's DC5 analysis for a class that was way too biased with trying to gain negative camber under compression, not so much concerned with tie rod arm angles.

If you are referring to the tie rod arm being perpendicular to the strut angle, I did not read that from someone else, but it was just a theory-- especially when people who tried to flatten the arms started to complain of other issues as a result. If that is what someone's analysis claimed, then that's great, at least I know I was thinking in the right direction.

I came to that conclusion based on thinking about the 3 angles that are correlated-- LCA angle, strut angle and tie rod angle. On my double wishbone car, the LCA and tie rod arm angle are supposed to be parallel to minimize bumpsteer. I took that, added the fact that the arm is bolted onto the strut, realized that the arm angle in relation to the strut angle go hand in hand with toe changes.

For years I have had mine at an angle, close to stock, even if my car is probably too low for its own good (my 255/40s have 0 gap, and the slight rake gives my 245/40s in the rear a finger gap or so). 0857 and his inverted tie rods have been an option for me to use, he is a track buddy of mine and our DC5s used to see the same track days, but I never used his tie rod ends nor the center bracket-- he even offered me a set free to try (his English is poor and my review would help him explain to his customers) but I refused to use them.

My most recent mod were the BC RCAs, given from my friend from Buddy Club. Immediate increase in steering feel, especially during sudden elevation changes that would cause the car to sway left to right. (imagine a huge mount and going over the mount at a 45 degree angle at speed... the RCAs allowed the car to maintain composure, weight transfer seemed to decrease).

RTR also ran 1000lbs/in spring rates up front to minimize suspension travel (minimize bump and rebound travel to minimize sussy geometry changes) for this reason. Their 2000lbs/in in the rear was to do the same. These rates were before they altered suspension pick up points, and is about the time I stopped looking at their cars.