Honda Civic / Del Sol (1992 - 2000) EG/EH/EJ/EK/EM1 Discussion

wanting to lower my eg hatch

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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 10:04 AM
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Icon2 wanting to lower my eg hatch

So I dont like how high my civic sits & the body gap . Right now I'm rolling on 185/70/13's but eventually plan to upgrade to some 195/50/15's. i saw some 2 1/2 inch lowering springs for pretty cheap , would this be all I need? or do I need a camber kit also? sorry if this is common knowledge but I dont have experience lowering cars.
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 10:14 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

i would do it. no camber kit should be fine
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 10:23 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

so just lowering springs wont cause excessive wear on the insides of the tires?
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 10:47 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

i got 2 1/2" drop on my coupe and i def needed a camber kit
but i wouldnt get a cheap camber kit i did and the bushings went out

i actually have ebay springs lol they are lower and have the same ride as my bros eibachs(i think thats how u spell it)

but go with a camber kit for sure
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 11:32 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

just coilovers on mine. not rediculously low but no camber kit, tires had some camber wear from my bros hatch (he has a camber kit) it was pretty bad for the amount of mileage he put on them. wear hasnt changed to much, and ive put a rediculous amount of miles in the few months ive had em. i dont think a camber kit is necessary
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 12:03 PM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Just cut the stock springs.
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 12:06 PM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by codrulz
So I dont like how high my civic sits & the body gap . Right now I'm rolling on 185/70/13's but eventually plan to upgrade to some 195/50/15's. i saw some 2 1/2 inch lowering springs for pretty cheap , would this be all I need? or do I need a camber kit also? sorry if this is common knowledge but I dont have experience lowering cars.
The lowering springs is all you will need. You do not need a camber kit to lower your car. A camber kit is used to induce camber (and some kits utilize caster as well) on your vehicle.

If you're concerned about ride quality, you should also look into getting shocks and struts.

Lowering springs will not cause excessive wear on the inside of the tires.
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 12:12 PM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Improper/Out-of-Spec Alignment will usually start wearing your tires out after lowering the car. Just make sure to get the alignment checked out after you install the lowering springs and you should be good to go!
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 01:04 PM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

For tire wear for your intentions, toe is what matters.

Get a good used reliable suspension brand. Shocks/Springs, or coilovers.

For stock shocks if you don't mind a mild drop you could get tein s-techs or maybe even H&R sports.
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 04:43 PM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

thanks for the input guys ! i was mostly worried about wear on the insides of my tires since they are pretty fresh.
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 04:48 PM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Just get an alignment. If they cant get the camber close to spec than you might need a camber kit. No big deal
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 06:53 PM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by collin-eg2
Just get an alignment. If they cant get the camber close to spec than you might need a camber kit. No big deal
Camber doesn't matter for tire wear

toe = 9/10 bad tire wear when lowering your car.

Camber is GOOD.
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Old Sep 20, 2010 | 08:18 PM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by ek forever guy
Camber doesn't matter for tire wear

toe = 9/10 bad tire wear when lowering your car.

Camber is GOOD.
BS! Why do you think tires sometimes get bald in the inside?!!!
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 02:52 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by collin-eg2
BS! Why do you think tires sometimes get bald in the inside?!!!
Because when you lower the car the toe and camber both go out of whack. Setting the toe to 0 solves the inner tier wear problem.
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 03:20 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by collin-eg2
BS! Why do you think tires sometimes get bald in the inside?!!!
You only see "camber wear" when you have a thinner sidewall tire. If you are running like 50 or 60r tires the sidewall will flex enough to have minamal wear. I have -2 camber and have been driving on these tires for about a year and no wear.
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 03:36 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Correct. People get this myth of "camber wear" from reading craigslist ads and other nonsense where people are selling wheels or tires and advertise as two of the tiers having camber wear.

9 times out of 10 it's because whoever had that car, dumped it and didn't get the toe set to 0.

It's kind of sad. People spend hundreds on camber kits, and then just take their car to the shop and say "hey just make sure my camber is right." Instead of getting a full alignment to save some $$$.

Do it right the first time. I'm tired of this nonsense going around about "camber wear"

My first civic was dumped and all I did was get my mechanic to align it and set the toe to 0. My back wheels had some pretty solid camber. My tires wore just like normal as far as I could tell. I did get the tires rotated as often as I should have. Also keeping proper tire pressure helps a lot too.

so tired of this camber wear nonsense
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 03:52 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by Adamvanxxx
Just cut the stock springs.
dont ever cut the stock springs just pick up a cheap set of coilovers or lowering springs.
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 04:51 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by ek forever guy
Correct. People get this myth of "camber wear" from reading craigslist ads and other nonsense where people are selling wheels or tires and advertise as two of the tiers having camber wear.

9 times out of 10 it's because whoever had that car, dumped it and didn't get the toe set to 0.

It's kind of sad. People spend hundreds on camber kits, and then just take their car to the shop and say "hey just make sure my camber is right." Instead of getting a full alignment to save some $$$.

Do it right the first time. I'm tired of this nonsense going around about "camber wear"

My first civic was dumped and all I did was get my mechanic to align it and set the toe to 0. My back wheels had some pretty solid camber. My tires wore just like normal as far as I could tell. I did get the tires rotated as often as I should have. Also keeping proper tire pressure helps a lot too.

so tired of this camber wear nonsense

Not that I don't believe you, but could you point me in the direction of article that shares your hypothesis? I'm looking at getting an alignment on my non-Honda that has lowering springs and a caster/camber set-up, and I'd love it if I could run a bit of camber... but that myth is making me paranoid.
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 04:57 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

I took this from the TireRack Tech Center:

Camber

The camber angle identifies how far the tire slants away from vertical when viewed directly from the front or back of the vehicle. Camber is expressed in degrees, and is said to be negative when the top of the tire tilts inward toward the center of the vehicle and positive when the top leans away from the center of the vehicle.

Since street suspensions cannot completely compensate for the outer tire tipping towards the outside when the vehicle leans in a corner, there isn't a magical camber setting that will allow the tires to remain vertical when traveling straight down the road (for more even wear), and remain perpendicular to the road during hard cornering (for more generous grip).

Different driving styles can also influence the desired camber angle as well. An enthusiastic driver who corners faster than a reserved driver will receive more cornering grip and longer tire life from a tire aligned with more negative camber. However with the aggressive negative camber, a reserved driver's lower cornering speeds would cause the inside edges of the tires to wear faster than the outside edges.

What's the downside to negative camber? Negative camber leans both tires on the axle towards the center of the vehicle. Each tire develops an equal and offsetting "camber thrust" force (the same principle that causes a motorcycle to turn when it leans) even when the vehicle is driven straight ahead. If the vehicle encounters a bump that only causes one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's negative camber will push the vehicle in the direction of the tire that lost grip. The vehicle may feel more "nervous" and become more susceptible to tramlining. Excessive camber will also reduce the available straight-line grip required for rapid acceleration and hard stops.

Appropriate camber settings that take into account the vehicle and driver's aggressiveness will help balance treadwear with cornering performance. For street-driven vehicles, this means that tire wear and handling requirements must be balanced according to the driver's needs. The goal is to use enough negative camber to provide good cornering performance while not requiring the tire to put too much of its load on the inner edge while traveling in a straight line. Less negative camber (until the tire is perpendicular to the road at zero camber) typically will reduce the cornering ability, but results in more even wear.

Even though they have some of the most refined suspensions in the world, the next time you see a head-on photo of a Formula 1 car or CART Champ Car set up for a road course, notice how much negative camber is dialed into the front wheels. While this is certainly an example of wear not being as important as grip, negative camber even helps these sophisticated racing cars corner better.
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 05:01 AM
  #20  
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

And a bit on toe from the same place:

Toe

The toe angle identifies the exact direction the tires are pointed compared to the centerline of the vehicle when viewed from directly above. Toe is expressed in either degrees or fractions-of-an-inch, and an axle is said to have positive toe-in when imaginary lines running through the centerlines of the tires intersect in front of the vehicle and have negative toe-out when they diverge. The toe setting is typically used to help compensate for the suspension bushings compliance to enhance tire wear. Toe can also be used to adjust vehicle handling.

A rear-wheel drive vehicle "pushes" the front axle's tires as they roll along the road. Tire rolling resistance causes a little drag resulting in rearward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Because of this, most rear-wheel drive vehicles use some positive toe-in to compensate for the movement, enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.

Conversely, a front-wheel drive vehicle "pulls" the vehicle through the front axle, resulting in forward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Therefore most front-wheel drive vehicles use some negative toe-out to compensate for the movement, again enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.

Toe can also be used to alter a vehicle's handling traits. Increased toe-in will typically result in reduced oversteer, help steady the car and enhance high-speed stability. Increased toe-out will typically result in reduced understeer, helping free up the car, especially during initial turn-in while entering a corner.

Before adjusting toe outside the vehicle manufacturer's recommended settings to manipulate handling, be aware that toe settings will influence wet weather handling and tire wear as well.

Excessive toe settings often bring with them drivability problems, especially during heavy rain. This is because the daily pounding of tractor trailers on many highways leave ruts that fill with water. Since excessive toe means that each tire is pointed in a direction other than straight ahead, when the vehicle encounters a puddle that causes only one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's toe setting will push (excessive toe-in) or pull (excessive toe-out) the vehicle to the side. This may make the vehicle feel unsettled and very "nervous."

Additionally the vehicle's toe is one of the most critical alignment settings relative to tire wear. A toe setting that is just a little off its appropriate setting can make a huge difference in their wear. Consider that if the toe setting is just 1/16-inch off of its appropriate setting, each tire on that axle will scrub almost seven feet sideways every mile! Extend it out and you'll discover that rather than running parallel to each other, the front tires will scrub over 1/4-mile sideways during every 100 miles of driving! Incorrect toe will rob you of tire life.
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 05:01 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

I put some konenig adjustable struts and nuespeed sport springs with a skunk 2 camber kit. Great ride, but this is doing it right, so you can either do it right, or you can do it super cheap. I'd save up and do it right the first time if i was you.
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 05:28 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by integra_mike
dont ever cut the stock springs just pick up a cheap set of coilovers or lowering springs.
That was me being sarcastic. Hah
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 05:28 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by Smarg
Not that I don't believe you, but could you point me in the direction of article that shares your hypothesis? I'm looking at getting an alignment on my non-Honda that has lowering springs and a caster/camber set-up, and I'd love it if I could run a bit of camber... but that myth is making me paranoid.
This is why we harp about reading stickies, posting in the proper forums, and doing searches.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes-54/no-you-do-not-need-camber-kits-2614449/
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 05:33 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

there's honestly some good info in this thread
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Old Sep 21, 2010 | 10:17 AM
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Default Re: wanting to lower my eg hatch

Originally Posted by ek forever guy
This is why we harp about reading stickies, posting in the proper forums, and doing searches.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2614449
My apologies, thanks for the link.

This is what threw me off:

9 times out of 10 it's because whoever had that car, dumped it and didn't get the toe set to 0.
I believe, since this is a FWD set-up, you're going to want to go to stock toe specs, and not 0 toe. Stock toe would have slight toe-out, correct?

Also, nobody is saying that camber does not make a difference in tire-wear. Everyone is saying it doesn't result in "excessive" tire wear, and the OP in the link you directed me to even said he had "inner tire wear" running a camber set-up, although he believe a bad bushing was the cause.
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