Suspension & Brakes Theory, alignment, spring rates....

alignment question on eg hatch

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Old Aug 24, 2010 | 07:16 AM
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Default alignment question on eg hatch

i got a question, im going to do a alignment on my car after i put on the new tires, do i have to replace all my bushings on the front end of the vehical? the two knuckle arm bushings with the castle head nuts seems to be ok and the front LCA bushings seems to be in ok shape i mean they have a little crack but are still very stiff and still holds, the only bushings i see thats kinda fuccked is the tie rod bushings, but again it holds very stiff no play or nothing... i was thinking about just changing the tie rod bushings for the hell of it.
and one last question, im currently running some cheap ebay coil overs, i have herd that coil overs can increase wear on the innerside of the tire threads and say that springs would be better and will help save tires from wearing out. should i replace the coil overs with regular springs before i take it in for a alignment?
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Old Aug 25, 2010 | 06:41 PM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

ttt anyone?
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Old Aug 25, 2010 | 09:01 PM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

If you don't feel any side to side or up and down play in the wheel when its off the ground your good to go for an alignment, as for the tire wear, you shouldn't see much if any your alignment gets done. Extreme negative camber can cause the inner sides of the tires to wear out but your car needs to be slammed to have that much camber. All you can adjust on your car is toe, (unless you have aftermarket kits) so just get that set and you'll be fine. Just keep the springs for now if there is nothing wrong with them, you don't want to be swapping between springs because that's going to change the ride height and therefor change the alignment again
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Old Aug 26, 2010 | 07:14 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Originally Posted by Krut
If you don't feel any side to side or up and down play in the wheel when its off the ground your good to go for an alignment, as for the tire wear, you shouldn't see much if any your alignment gets done. Extreme negative camber can cause the inner sides of the tires to wear out but your car needs to be slammed to have that much camber. All you can adjust on your car is toe, (unless you have aftermarket kits) so just get that set and you'll be fine. Just keep the springs for now if there is nothing wrong with them, you don't want to be swapping between springs because that's going to change the ride height and therefor change the alignment again
so take out the coil overs w/ springs?? i have a set of H&R springs(springs only no coil overs) that i was going to put in to replace the coil overs w/springs...
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Old Aug 26, 2010 | 08:52 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

yeah go ahead and take them out if you want
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Old Aug 26, 2010 | 10:51 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

If you see cracks in bushings replace them. You cannot impose nearly enough force on those as the car in motion can. And worn tie rods lead to no steering...YIKES!!! Check inner and outer tie rods...easy enough to replace...but also easy enough to screw up the install...get the proper torque value for the inner toe rods for sure and make sure the rack gear is basrelt sticking out of the housing before torquing it...
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Old Aug 26, 2010 | 06:06 PM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Tie rods don't have bushings, its a dust boot on the outer and a bellows boot on the rack for the inner, just to keep dirt out and grease in, he already said they have no play in them but if those are torn your going to lose all your grease and they will start wearing out eventually
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Old Aug 27, 2010 | 05:07 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

I know tie rods don't have bushings...I was referring to the OP's comment about cracks in the LCA bushings. They should be replaced if they have cracks. That is a sign of age, wear and failure. The OP cannot possibly exert the same amount of force on the LCAs as the car will in motion...so a small crack may indeed be very big under load.
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Old Aug 27, 2010 | 08:15 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

u guys are correct, i will get bushing kit when i can afford them.
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Old Aug 27, 2010 | 08:42 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

If you are going through the trouble may I suggest Mugen hard rubber? The labor is the same...the cost for the LCA bushings can be a tad pricey, but the handling improvement is quite noticable! ...and from my perspective the increase in harshness is barely noticable.
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Old Aug 27, 2010 | 08:42 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

wel i got the alignment done I didnt have a camber kit so they couldnt do anything about the camber, but will that -3.0 camber wear out my tires?? Here are the specs

BEFORE
Camber
Left front: -3.0 degree
right front: -3.7 degree

Caster
left front: 0.0 degree
right front: 0.0 degree

Toe
left front: 0.90 degree
right front: 0.55 degree

Camber
left rear: -1.1 degree
right rear: -1.5 degree

Toe
left rear: 0.28 degree
right rear: .017 degree

AFTER
Camber
Left front:-3.0 degree
right front: -3.7 degree

Caster
left front: 0.0 degree
right front: 0.0 degree

Toe
left front:-0.03 degree
right front: -0.02 degree

Camber
left rear: -1.2 degree
right rear: -1.5 degree

Toe
left rear: 0.06 degree
right rear: 0.10 degree
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Old Aug 27, 2010 | 12:28 PM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

It might a little bit, but I wouldn't worry too much, investing in some adjustable upper arms to get the camber around -1.5- to -2.0 wouldn't be a bad idea
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Old Aug 27, 2010 | 12:46 PM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Originally Posted by Krut
It might a little bit, but I wouldn't worry too much, investing in some adjustable upper arms to get the camber around -1.5- to -2.0 wouldn't be a bad idea
i have herd that the aftermarket camber kits can hit under the shock towers and sometime crack it?? but whats a good and affordable camber kit?
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Old Aug 27, 2010 | 01:14 PM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

just a quick question if i were to replace a axle will it fucck up the aligment?
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Old Aug 27, 2010 | 03:18 PM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

i was looking at the ingalls camber kit will these work without it hitting the shock towers or fenders?
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Old Aug 27, 2010 | 03:50 PM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Originally Posted by 092eg6
i have herd that the aftermarket camber kits can hit under the shock towers and sometime crack it?? but whats a good and affordable camber kit?
Yes, sliding balljoint type camber kits are all taller than stock, and reduce available suspension travel.

I have dented shock towers thanks to my set...

Originally Posted by 092eg6
i was looking at the ingalls camber kit will these work without it hitting the shock towers or fenders?
Yes, but the vast majority of alignment shops won't be able to keep the caster correct when using these, due to how they adjust.

Then again, your caster is off to begin with...

Be sure to get rubber and not polyurethane if you don't want them to squeak.

Personally, I would try and find out why the caster is so off, and why the camber is so different right/left, before worrying about the camber. I went 30k miles with -4* of front camber, and my tires wore perfectly fine and evenly, so I'm big believer that camber isn't an issue with regards to tire wear.
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Old Aug 29, 2010 | 10:41 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Originally Posted by TunerN00b
Yes, sliding balljoint type camber kits are all taller than stock, and reduce available suspension travel.

I have dented shock towers thanks to my set...



Yes, but the vast majority of alignment shops won't be able to keep the caster correct when using these, due to how they adjust.

Then again, your caster is off to begin with...

Be sure to get rubber and not polyurethane if you don't want them to squeak.

Personally, I would try and find out why the caster is so off, and why the camber is so different right/left, before worrying about the camber. I went 30k miles with -4* of front camber, and my tires wore perfectly fine and evenly, so I'm big believer that camber isn't an issue with regards to tire wear.
wait caster is at 0 degree so how can it be off? they didnt say that there was anything wrong with caster, the only thing they said is cambers are at -3.0 to -3.7. and cant adjust due to no camber kit.
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Old Aug 29, 2010 | 11:30 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

i found these camber kits made by ingalls, will these work without hitting the shock towers?
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Old Aug 30, 2010 | 05:05 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Be very careful with Ingalls...the kit I used about 10 years ago came with very long ball joint studs. At normal ride height the top of the control arms came into contact with the uni-body after a pretty agressive drive. The angle of the upper arm, in part, determines roll center locations...so pay attention to this detail as well.
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Old Aug 30, 2010 | 11:04 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Originally Posted by 092eg6
wait caster is at 0 degree so how can it be off? they didnt say that there was anything wrong with caster, the only thing they said is cambers are at -3.0 to -3.7. and cant adjust due to no camber kit.
Caster should be +1*, not 0. Positive caster provides straight line stability, and helps force the wheel to recenter itself.

"Cambers" isn't a word, as it is not a noun to pluralize.

The sliding ball joint UCA pictured will reduce suspension travel.

These are the type of adjusters I was discussing as better for suspension travel, but nearly impossible to avoid screwing up caster when adjusting:
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Old Aug 30, 2010 | 11:48 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Just thought I would throw this out there...

A car can have 0 degrees mechanical trail but have positive caster angle...or it can have postive mechanical trail and postive caster. The caster angle is what helps stright line stability...when the catser line intersects the ground at the center of the contact patch we have zero mechanical trail. When it intersects the ground ahead of the tire's center line we have positive mechanical trail. We can also have 0 caster angle and positive mechanical trail...like a shopping cart. But like a shopping cart, caster angle also helps to keep the wheels from wiggling back and forth...although I am not entirely clear about this aspect of caster. Then we get into pneumatic trail... but another time.

Steering wheel returnability can be washed out by caster since caster lifts one side of the car's body and drops the other. SAI on the other hand is equal left and right and is really repsonsible for helping the steering wheel to return to center; SAI raises both side and both gravity and the tire's self aligning torque help straighten the steering wheel.

Yes!!! Not plural...nice.


Originally Posted by TunerN00b
Caster should be +1*, not 0. Positive caster provides straight line stability, and helps force the wheel to recenter itself.

"Cambers" isn't a word, as it is not a noun to pluralize.

The sliding ball joint UCA pictured will reduce suspension travel.

These are the type of adjusters I was discussing as better for suspension travel, but nearly impossible to avoid screwing up caster when adjusting:

Last edited by meb58; Aug 31, 2010 at 04:46 AM.
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Old Aug 31, 2010 | 07:44 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Originally Posted by TunerN00b
Caster should be +1*, not 0. Positive caster provides straight line stability, and helps force the wheel to recenter itself.

"Cambers" isn't a word, as it is not a noun to pluralize.

The sliding ball joint UCA pictured will reduce suspension travel.

These are the type of adjusters I was discussing as better for suspension travel, but nearly impossible to avoid screwing up caster when adjusting:
ok so if my caster is off will it cause my steering wheel to shake at around 80 mph? i ask this because it seems like what ever i do, it cannot stop the shaking at 80mph, ive got new tires, balance, new axles, everything but does not stop the shaking at 80mph...

and how do i get the caster to the positive 1* side?
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Old Aug 31, 2010 | 09:58 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

...vibration...try this first. Drive at the speed at which the steering wheel shakes, then take the car out of gear...then put it back into gear. If the vibration goes away while the transmission is in gear the car has a driveline problem...if the vibration does not go away then we have to diagnose that in a different way. But first eliminate the driveline from the equation.

Uneven caster will cause the steering wheel to pull to one side, it will not cause a vibration...more kick back if excessive perhaps, but not vibration
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Old Sep 1, 2010 | 11:20 AM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

i have herd that switching UCA from letf to right and right to left can increase caster? will doing this be able to get my 0* caster to 1* caster?
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Old Sep 1, 2010 | 12:11 PM
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Default Re: alignment question on eg hatch

Originally Posted by 092eg6
i have herd that switching UCA from letf to right and right to left can increase caster? will doing this be able to get my 0* caster to 1* caster?
Swapping UCAs on an EG/DC will add +1.5* of caster.

Doing so will also throw off the toe curve (cause bumpsteer). Been there, done that, won't try it again.

I would look into why it is currently off (what parts are bent / damaged), and not try and "band aid" fix it.
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