hey everybody

i've searched pretty well already and i'm now looking at HPS's, HP+s, or the carbotech AX6, XP8s or XP10s.

i drive the car on the street, but ONLY to get back and forth to the track because i don't have a trailer. it's 'semi race preped' in the sence that it has a weld in half-cage and no interior, but stock seats and just a stock B20 for motor. i was going to try to build it up to race this season but a job layoff has left me with the car in the condition i got it in, and only doing HPDEs


but my search inspired other questions. mostly around concerns about brake bias. i have stock GSR brakes all the way to the pedal and i'm sure it's on the stock settings for F/R bias. people say to get a less aggressive pad for the rear or my forward bias will become too great...........

so the question is, given that the only street driving the car is going to see is to the track and back, whats the most aggressive pad combo you would suggest given my tire choice. i don't want to get more pad than my probably-2200lbs car with new Faken 615s can handle, but i don't care about streetability other than basic safety so i'd also assume to get the most aggressive pad i could get. dust is irrelevant to me and noise is only barely relevant

also, i was going to get some superblue fluid and fresh rotors when i do the switch

it's been suggested to go with AX6 in the front and stock in the back or XP10 in the front and XP8s in the back


any other bright ideas?

 

Id say you didnt search and read long enough.
All your questions have been covered about 100 gazillion times.
Dont mean to sound like a Di** but you arent the only one who drives your track car to the track, and pad combos, fluids, hybrid brakes, big brake kits have been discussed in much detail.
Since you already have the gsr brakes to the pedal.. Im assuming you also have the 40/40 prop valve as well?
Take a poll of all the reading you have done and you should have sufficient information to make a sound choice.
You'll end up experimenting with different pads, someone will suggest this or that, but it ultimately depends on what you have tried and what you like.

 

well, i hear ya, but when i search for 615 or falken and XP8 or 615 or falken and XP10 it doesn't come up with anything useful.

i'm specifically looking to see if that's not too much stopping power with tires that are "only as sticky" as the new 615s on a light car.......i don't want to spend the day with the ABS light on


that an also i don't really know what kind of valve i have since i didn't do the swap, and would rather not mess with it. i'd rather just get different pads front and back

 

Just a little disclaimer. I'm not a pro when it comes to set-up i'm trying to learn as best i can. I hope this helps.

What i'm in is a 96gsr, full interior, stock motor for the most part, and i have brembo sloted rotors. HP+ front hps rear motul 600rbf with SS lines. Braking is predictable, slight oversteer under brakeing if trial braking.

Upgrading fluid is a great idea, there was just a thread posted in here with a compairison of alot of different fluids i would use that in making a decision. lots off good info.

Rotors depends on your budget. But the most cost effective way that i see is using the brembo blanks. Some people will swear by autozone duralast, but i just can't bring myself to go down that road. It's funny too cuz some of the people that use them really seem like they know what they are doing. but definatly look at rotors as something you will change like the oil, if this is going to be a tack mostly car.

Love my pads, really can't comment on any other brands, but the HPS will fade if you have it on the front. I think the HP+ are pleanty good for what i'm doing, although i am thinking about trying the blues to see how much better they are. I think that you could do the same thing and be good.

All in all i think that you are going to have to find a combination of pads that makes you feel comfortable so you can drive fast. I was thinking about going with OE pads in the rear with HP+ in the front. I'm glad i didn't, i think it would been a handful if i was ever trail braking. I have to say tho, i didn't even know what that was when i was first starting, ha.

If it were me i would start with a match set of four of the same pad, and use combinations to "tune" handling to fit your driving style and needs of the car. Sorry if you are more of a pro and wanted a higher level of information. but this is where i'm at, ha. GL

 

Broaden your search to include tires, brakes etc.
This will get you what you crave... the knowledge.
Stinky has a sticky on the art of searching... see the top of the forum.

The tires you have are sufficient for hpde, it thats the best you can afford.
Personally if im tracking a car I'm bringing R-comps with me.
I want the best tire for the conditions I intend to run in.
Then again its all budget specific.
How much money do you want to spend? or can you spend.
Sleeper gave some good advice...
Me personally have only used Hawk Blues and now I'm using the HT10's I like how they work for me.
Search some more... the info is there.

 

You will get a variety of opinions. I used HP+ on an Integra and found that the did not hold up well. Depends on the track, cooling and your braking pattern for a few things. I like Cobalt Friction, and I am sure that you can find similar in Carbotech. I use XR2 in front and XR5 rear, a fair difference to help with bias. With regards to ABS, I find that it is my foot, and not the pads that makes the difference. Once chosen, tire grip is set, as well as pads and brake, so ABS is then about foot pressure with any pads.

 

I've used several different pads and personally ended up liking Carbotech the most. I've used them on a '99 Civic si and my Honda Prelude. Call them up and ask what they'd suggest based on what you're doing for the front pads. At this point I'd just suggest using an inexpensive rear brake pad. I've used both inexpensive pads from a parts store and race pads. Not so sure how much of a difference it's made and would be fine using either or.

Keep with regular rotors. If it's a track car, getting some air to the brakes wouldn't hurt but depends on what tracks you're driving and style of driving.

 

I think for the level you are driving right now you are trying to get way technical about brakes and tires. Once you get to the full potential of what you have then start experimenting. I would be more concern about using stock seats with half a cage. In my book is just a no-no. Take it from someone that walked away from good roll.

 

XR2s and XP10s will be overkill on 615s, and you will have lockup problems. XR3s or XP8s will be better, but you'll have to be careful with them on a car that light. HP+ is probably the best way to go. Without adjustable rear bias you'll want a less aggressive rear pad, like Axxis Ultimates or Autozone Craptaculars.

For searching, you can be too specific with your terms, which is what it sounds like you did. Instead of "Brakes Azenis" or "Brakes 615" try just "Brake pads" or even "Brakes". You'll have to sift through some threads for the information you want, but I can guarantee you its there. While you're sifting, you just might learn a thing or two as well.

 

being someone who has driven his hatch with 615s and XP10s for an entire season, (as well as XP8s and AX6 the previous season) I can tell you it is a lot of pad for those tires but not too much (at least IMO)... you do have to be careful to keep them from locking but it's far from difficult to do. (I've never had any fade either )
the XP8s would be better if you're not used to threshold breaking every time you hit the pedal hard.
Also keep in mind the XP10s squeek like a mother when they are cold. If you going to the track, and stop at a light, prepare to annoy the heck out of everyone around you. (it's loud)
Cold bite has never been a problem with any of the carbotech pads I've tried.

heck call up carbotech, tell them what you have and what you plan to do, and they will recommend a pad. I spent almost an hour on the phone with them one day talking over pro's and con's and pedal feel of compounds.
I'm sure I annoyed them but to me it was priceless.

 

Lick the pads before you put them on the car. The ones that are sweet tasting are the ones you want to use.

Seriously, asking what pad is the best is like asking what color is the best. Go with any pad that the manufacturer suggests is good for a light track car. More pad isn't always better, so going out and getting the highest torque and heat range pad you can find is a great way to waste money and flat spot tires. Start out in the shallow end of the pool and work your way up as your experience level increases.

 

MOTUL RBF 600

HAWK DTC-60

FRONT-WILWOOD 4 POT 11" KIT SS BRAKE LINES- OEM ROTORS AND BRAKES IN THE BACK

I USED THIS ON A K20 POWERD EG FOR A SEASON WITH OUT ANY PROBLEMS
VERY PREDICTABLE AND NOT TO NOISY BUT VERY DUSTY

I DID USE THIS COMBO ON AZENIS,R888,NT01 AND RA1 +++WORKS GREAT+++ MY.02$

 

The answer also depends on how hard do you brake? Are you in the Novice, Intermediate, or Advanced group?

Novices tend to "street brake" for a while until they get up the courage to stand on the middle pedal. Sometimes an instructor can expedite this, but usually a Novice will prefer say an HP+ where an Advanced driver would be able to use the DTC-60s (using Hawks as an example).

I'd say if you want a Hawk pad, use no more than an HT-10. If you've done maybe less than 5 track days, maybe go with the HP+.

Also, if you don't already have the 40/40 valve you need this.

 

The brake pedal is not an on-off switch, it is still foot modulation. Pad temperature range must be adequate, and HP+ are marginal to me, depending on your ability and habits.

 

i hear you on the valve. i've been looking into that too....

believe it or not, even though i quite a honda noob, i can actually drive half way decently. i'm an instructor with two different clubs and i got a honda because i wanted to get back to basics as a driver. i've always had super new nice german cars and my last car was a stock evo. wanted something without throttle control or a ton of HP and AWD to stop covering up my mistakes as a driver.

even still, driveability still counts. XP10s and XP8s still sound doable but i'm starting to lean more towards XP8s and AX6s now. but it's good to see that i'm guessing pretty close to threshold of those tires (as per Stinkycheezmonky comments)

now i'm just looking for an on line retailer that has everything i need (rotors, fluid and the pads)

 

uh, uh-oh.......not to thread jack, but i guess it's my thread....shouldn't it not matter if all the cage is behind the driver/passenger?

 

Not sure for street/race setup, but on my race car with wilwood dynalite I have tried wilwood pads, hawks (blue, dtc, etc) and performance friction 97 compound. For me performance friction is the closed thing to a ferrodo but cheap.

 

If you just got laid off I would go with the following

HPS from Pepboys $30-50 I think they trying to get rid of their stock so you might have to search

Prestone at Autozone with a 500 degree dry boiling point $4

Focus on more track time and call it a day this is how PM Garage would do it.

 

I have experience tracking an "HPDE" car similar to yours - it's an bare-interior Integra with stock B18 and 205-15 Falken RT-615's. I had great luck with the HP+ pads with rotors dedicated to these pads in the 20 or so track days I did with this car running lap times within 4% of my H4 CRX times. This was on three different tracks - Cal Speedway, Willow Springs, Steets of Willow, Buttonwillow various configs. - with much different braking requirements (and brake temps).

Because the 615's are medium grip, your brake temperatures typically don't get high enough where a Hawk Blue, HT-10, DTC-60, or the equivalents with the other pad manufacturers are advantageous. The HP+ are also much less expensive. In addition, I use Motul RBF660, Goodridge lines, Centric rotors, and stock rear pads.

The only reason I can see to change to a higher heat range pad is if you are particularly hard on brakes, the course has many high speed to low speed braking zones, you tend to overslow the car, or you have experienced pad fade (not brake fluid boiling). If you've had pad fade, try to run cooling ducts to the inside of the rotors first before going to a higher heat range pad.

 

Whatever you get, the "good news" is that you're going to use up brake pads quickly in HPDE events. So you "get to" try one kind and use them up; if you don't like them for whatever reason, try something else next time, some kind that addresses whatever you don't like about the previous kinds you've used.

 

Mike, you certainly do not need this. Infact, for most people it screws them up and hurts performance. Buy the brake pads, flush fuilds, and focus on your driving and getting seat time. Seriously, forget the brake valve at least for now. I don't have it on my ITB Prelude nor the SSC Civic si and they both do "okay".

 

Can you explain why you don't need the 40/40 valve?

Both times I did complete brake swaps on 2 different cars, I went a week or so before installing the 40/40 valve. Both times I was unimpressed with the performance until I finally installed the valve. The brake bias is better, the pedal feel is much better, and the stopping power is better. I am interested to hear why you think this hurts performance.

 

I have a 40/40 valve but have been hesitant to put it on. Don't know if I should or not. The car has rear discs stock and I've only upgraded the fronts. I'm not even sure I know what a 40/40 valve does differently in comparison to the stock crx si valve.

 

ok now i'm confused.....

 

I can attest to this, I had 615's with XP8's on my 350z and even running 265-width in the front I was getting lockup/abs issues. Go with the HP+ for a civic