I’d like some help. I have a 1995 Integra 4-door and for a year and a half I have been trying to find satisfaction with my Koni/GC suspension.

There is long story behind my experience and my expectations and if anyone wants to know it, I can lay it down, but the bottom line is that I was looking for a taut-handling but comfortable street suspension with a practical, performance-oriented ride height reduction (mild lowering, 1 to 1-1/2 inches, not slammed). The car doesn’t see the track but I enjoy spirited driving around town and in the desert and mountains.

After reading numerous posts on a couple of forums, particularly Honda-Tech, I opted for an OTS Koni/GC package. As a result, and despite how I adjust rebound, instead of razor-sharp handling I have rather questionable handling. I settled on 1 full turn front and rear for a combination of the best handing with a decent ride. It is a little firmer than my previous set up (Bilstein HD and Eibach Pro-kit) which is what I was looking for and does ok at posted speeds on the highway but around town on uneven surfaces or during spirited driving where it meets swells and dips at a higher speed, it lacks satisfactory motion control and composure. It feels dumpy and sloppy with too much wallow. At high speed it is the opposite of confidence-inspiring; it feels like I’m taking my life into my hands.

I have spoken to Koni and Ground Control and they have tried to guess at causes and solutions. In my last conversation with GC, the rep said he was surprised I didn’t “like the feel of the set up” and that if I read Honda-Tech, so many people love, love, love it. I felt discouraged by his statement. Personally, I think Koni sent me four worn out dampers but it could truly be that the Koni Sport handling characteristics just don’t match my expectations. I will have them removed and send them to Koni but after this bad experience, even if these prove to be worn and I receive new ones under warranty, I’m reluctant to give Konis another chance. After reading so much hype and hearing about Koni this and Koni that, I really wanted to like this set up but right now I’m leaning 90% toward Bilsteins unless someone can show me good reason otherwise.

Then, if I choose Bilsteins, I have to choose between returning to the softish Pro-kits or retro-fitting the GCs to the Bilsteins and about $160 in new GC hardware. I'm kinda leery of the GCs because of the linear rear springs; after the funky performance I've been experiencing, I don't know how they will really ride and I'm losing my taste for trial and error; I don't do these installs myself - every time something goes on or comes off the car, I pay for it.

Anyone in the Phoenix AZ area who knows what a Koni/GC suspension is supposed to feel like care to drive my Integra and tell me if this is it? I’d also like it if someone would let me experience a properly performing Koni/GC suspension so I can know as well.

 

What sway bar(s) are you running? Tires? Alignment specs?

Im not doubting your knowledge but all the info would help. What is the average road condition where you drive? Rough spots are troublesome for cars with stiff springs. Even my civic with soft H&Rs gets jittery over holes and bumps in corners. Is it possible something is installed wrong?

 

2000 GSR, Koni/GC owner here. 400/400 rates though.
Couldn't be happier with the suspension overall.

First off, you have a 15 year old car. What conditions are the bushings in? If it feels sloppy, that is the first thing that should be looked at.

Following bushings, balljoints, tierod ends, ARB endlinks, and possibly bearings should all be checked and replaced as needed.

Bilstein HD shocks have quite a bit more compression damping than the Koni Sports (if I am reading the shock dynos correctly, which I might not be). That alone will change the feel and responsiveness of the car.

Not sure why you think linear springs are a bad thing. Personally, I've always hated how unpredictable progressive rate springs feel. From a performance standpoint, race cars all run linear springs.

Really though, this is your car, and since it is a purely street driven car, how it feels to you is much more important than which would be faster around a race track. If you preferred the progressive rate lowering springs on the Bilstein HD shocks, you should probably just go back to that.

If you want to feel a properly performing Koni/GC equipped car, show up for a local auto-x practice day. I'd bet someone there will have an ST class Civic running such a setup (probably on much stiffer than OTS rates though) and be willing to let you ride along for a run.

 

Good questions, all.

At the same time I had the Koni/GCs installed, we also replaced the still puny 19mm Suspension Techniques rear sway bar with a 24mm ASR rear bar (the front Integra ST bar is 25mm). I added Skunk2 rear lower control arms (same or less cost than my shop replacing bushings in both stock arms), SPC rear adjustable toe links and front upper arms, we reinforced the factory extruded trailing arms (no flex now), replaced the OEM trailing arm bushings with new OEM ones (don’t want harshness there), and ES bushings all around (most of the originals weren’t very bad, just figured we’d do them all). Tires are Dunlop Direzza Star Specs. Alignment = Camber: -.05 f/-1 rear; Toe: 0 all around.

The roads here aren’t very bad, just the usual patches and manhole covers here and there. It’s not jitters I’m describing, though; it’s excessive and (what’s the opposite of composed? Sloppy?) body motion, even going straight, even on undulations. Correct installation is something Ground Control asked; I am supposed to email pics to them and will (thank for reminding), but I'm inclined to think my shop knows how to install.

My shop and I checked the wheel linkages for play and found none; it’s all good and tight. Plus it felt fine with the previous suspension (until those dampers really went south).

Re. Bilsteins proprietary damping, that’s what I’m wondering: could that be wholly responsible for the difference in feel?

My concern with linear springs is less forgiving rear ride quality in day to day driving. The ride quality where bumps are concerned has been fine; very compliant. However, upon going over dips or where the car meets a raised road surface, when the back end met the rise (i.e. the upside of a dip) it would spring up with abrupt force and felt like it was launching the occupants into the air. There was no impact harshness, just a violent upward force. It seemed that the compression was a non-event but it rebounded like a mother. Like flipping a pancake in a pan; you don’t whack the pan from the bottom, you just give it a quick forceful flick. It’s like that. No amount of rebound adjustment would eliminate it, but raising the ride height little by little over the past year to higher than it was with the Pro-kits has finally lessened it (but it’s still there). And to address whether the bumpstops were hitting the chassis, my tech found that the rear bumpstops are only 1-1/4 inches – shorter than recommended, yet a zip tie still gets pushed just about to the top of the damper shaft where it meets the strut mount. He said Konis must be long dampers (in any case, not shortened vs. stock I suppose). I figured I’d give linear springs a chance with this set up but I don’t think this is a good representation as other factors are obscuring the feel. So it's still an open question for me.

While I preferred the Bilstein/Pro-kit suspension to what I’m feeling now, it was a tad softer than I liked, so I would still prefer a step up, maybe 10-15% firmer.

Good advice on finding a local autocross; I’ll look for one. If do, I might be able to have someone test my suspension as well.

TunerN00b, lately I have read where others with Konis experience the rear kick up that I described; do you experience anything like that with Konis and 400 lbs rears?

 

You can read shock dynos all day long, but just cause one damper has more compression damping doesn't mean it's going feel stiffer on the road. There are soo much more factors invovled that people don't take into consideration when looking at one. The fact is you can valve 2 different brand shocks to produce identical damping curves, but when on the car and tested on the road you would be surprised that both will not produce the same end results.

What spring rates were you setup with, and who recommend it?

Also exactly what is bothering you? Comfort? Performance?

What do you want out of the setup, and has this been the result right off the bat when you first got them. Where they also purchased brand new?

I been trying to figure out the hype for many years myself LOL.

 

I have the off the shelf (OTS) Koni/GC rates as recommended by GC as their basic street set up for the Integra, which is 380 front, 250 rear.

Comfort is fine; it’s plenty compliant. However, it feels like my previous two aftermarket suspensions felt when their dampers started to wear out: lack of composure, allows the car to react rather sloppily when going over swells and undulations. Not utterly horrific, just not controlled like it should be. And yes, this translates into poor performance handling. Feels like too much roll and unsteady balance in corners. Driving it is just not very fun.

I can't honestly say that I can remember that it felt exactly this way when brand new 18 months ago (yes, I bought them brand new from a retailer) but it didn’t feel right; it always exhibited excessive body motion. For instance, when turning out of a parking lot onto the street, the suspension works a fair amount as you turn out onto the street. With this suspension the car wallows or teeters (you could say rolls, sways or rocks) left and right about three times after it is fully on the road (in consecutively smaller cycles: left/right, left/right, left/right) before it settles down and levels out. It feels like I’m in a damned row boat. I thought it just needed damper fine-tuning but adjusting rebound harshened and unsettled the ride more than it damped the extra motion.

What I want is this:
I also have a 4th gen Prelude which I modified with Bilstein Sport dampers and RSR Down springs (279 f/ 229 r). I have been ecstatic with this set up for well over 10 years (through two sets of Bilsteins). It is an extremely good combination of taut and flat handling and a firm, but not punishing or annoying, ride. My goal with the Integra was to duplicate this feel and response. My first set up on the Integra with the Bilstein HDs and Pro-kits was close but a little soft. After the Bilsteins wore out I decided to get a slightly firmer spring. I also learned that the HDs aren’t meant for lowered cars and they don’t make their Sports for non-ITR Integras, so to optimize my set up I decided to also find a “proper” sport damper for lowered use. Unfortunately, here I am worse off than before.

I recognize that typed descriptions are just words and it sounds like it could be anything. I believe this is something that must be felt, which is why I solicited for someone to drive and feel it for themselves.

Side note: At 2pm yesterday I went to a scheduled SCCA autocross event to be held from around 7 am - 4:30 pm at Firebird Int’l Raceway but either missed everyone or there was a cancellation, so I am still at square one.

 

Nope. My car rides stiff, but nothing unexpected.

I do run my Koni shocks adjusted towards the soft side though. 1/2 turn from full soft front and back. Anything more than that felt over damped (harsh) to me.

 

2pm is a little late for an autocross, even if its just for someone to just test drive.


another note, can you give us some pics of the car as it sits, and pics of the koni/gc setup?

 

you should just go back to a bilstein set up. I love having a bilstein set up! I've had koni w/ h&r race sprigs, koni w/ gc, bilstein sports w/ h&r race springs, and h&r coilovers. The thing is all these set ups were on a VW. My favorite was the bilstein sports w/ the h&r race springs. I don't race, but do some spirited driving and that was the best set up that I liked. When I bought my integra I was looking for bilstein sports cause the car came with h&r springs on stock shocks. All I saw was the bilstein's for the type-r.

Why don't more honda/acura guys use Bilsteins? (just wondering, cause bilsteins are used more with the VW community)

 

if im not mistaken you can't adjust the dampening on the bilsteins, at least the sport.

 

Not having adjustment ***** isn't always a bad thing...

(pssst. It's "damping". "Dampening" means to make something wet.)

 

lol,


but, it's only a good thing to not have adjustment only if your dampers(sp), are matched with your springs.

 

Well, there are also those people who, given a chance to adjust something, will find a way to put it on the wrong setting and think they improved things.

Same days, I fall into that category...

 

I'm still running a set of Neuspeed coilovers on my hatch...pretty old...which are Bilstein somethings with Neuspeed Race springs. I'm assuming they were matched when sold as a set. I thought they were the **** when I got them back in 2000ish.
Wow..I was thinking of jumping on the Koni, GC bandwagon...

 

Me too, skunk2's on stock shocks are getting old.

My freind's dad has koni's and Eibach sport lines, and he said he likes the bilsteins much better then koni shocks.He said they were a bit softer, which his back likes haha.

 

And I have mine set to one full turn from full soft front & rear and it feels poorly damped (underdamped maybe?) with 380/250. Hmmm.

Here you go. This was a while ago; the car is maybe 1/4" higher now to try to improve the ride and handling (yes, new alignment too). As you can see, it never was very low.


I had dust boots on the dampers as shown but have removed them from the rear recently to troubleshoot and just haven't taken any pics since then. The next three shots are the rear, the last two are the front.










Which is why I'm on the verge of buying ITR rear lower control arms. But tell me, why did you like the Bilstein Sport/H&Rs over the H&R coilovers?

Neither Bilstein's Sport or HD dampers are adjustable; they are monotube and Bilstein's promos state that they are self-adjusting to road conditions. I have read that, in general, monotube dampers react more quickly and more minutely to smaller road surface changes and run cooler than twin tube dampers. But to be fair, I have also read that a well made twin tube will prove superior to a less well made monotube.

Amen, in my case, anyway.

And I think I got lucky with my Prelude, but someone correct me if I'm wrong: I'm guessing it's better to err on the side of a softer spring for the damper than too stiff of a spring for the damper.

Don't let my situation sway anyone too heavily yet. I'm trying to sort out whether my problem is a damper problem or a satisfaction problem. Although my suspicion is that I have bad dampers, I'm not 100% sure. While I will know for sure once I return these Konis, the rub is that I have to decide what to replace the Konis with before I have them taken off (it doubles as the "family four-door" after all). One thing I read over and over is that a "good" suspension is overwhelmingly subjective. I'd like someone who knows how Koni/GCs are supposed to feel to test mine and tell me whether it is performing poorly or if that's just how they are supposed to feel and I'd like to experience a properly working Koni/GC set up (or Koni and anything) before passing final judgement myself.

 

I didn't mention anything about the H&R coilovers cause I thought people would say "you can't compare a full coilover to a spring/shock combo!"

I loved my h&r coilovers, but pricier than any shock/spring combo. The damping was made specifically for the spring so the ride was great. The bilstein/h&r spring combo did feel more "planted".

 

you can try increasing the rear rebound if you want a tighter feeling ride. the eibach ers springs being linear do feel weird to some when they first start driving them. they aren't nearly as comfy as a progressive but they are easier to control when driving hard. i have 500-450 rates on my car and it's not underdamped at all. front is somewhere around half and the rear is just off of full stiff. it's a fast setup that would be difficult to equal for $800. my guess with the OP is:

1. shock valving could be tightened up some
2. rates are too light out back by 50-100lbs
3. he just doesn't like linear springs
4. springs are too light everywhere for his intended use since he mentions excessive body roll. putting those 380s out back and a 450 up front would cure that
5. bushings / ball joints in other parts of the car are worn

 

I might have some suspension laying around the shop you can run on your car while you have those inspected. Only thing I ask is that you pay the shipping. Good luck pal!

 

i kind of jumped ahead here and didnt read the full thread but i kept noticing a pattern that you stated you didnt like the way the car handled on uneven parts of the road..like when one wheel would dip and the other was on the "normal surface". if this is the case i would look at rear arb. 24mm is pretty big for a car with that is a. not tracked and b. for those "soft" of rates.

also and andy@amr. i wonder why you dont get the hype? maybe because you are trying to sell a product?

 

Not sure how asking a series of detailed questions, as well as offering some stock suspension to help the guy out is selling him something. He already has money invested in a setup that looks brand new, I don't think he is in the market for suspension. But if he were I guarentee that he will be a satisfied customer. Your not going to be seeing a thread like this from him if he ran my coilovers. But the fact still remains we get a ton of different brand setups left with us. I just recently aquired a Hotbits Rally setup which I got to keep and I'll be taking apart to see what's going on, and put them on the dyno to see how that brand performs. I also have numorours Koni dampers, as well as stock suspension. Just trying to help the guy out. I should probably post the used Koni dampers for sale in the marketplace cause it would probably be better than craigslist where I've been placing most of the used stuff I keep.

Last time I heard it wasn't against the rules to help a fellow H-T member out. He should be a satisifed customer since Koni is king around here right? Looks to me no one here is helping the guy out enough to get him results. WELL I WILL!

 

nothing wrong with helping him out. but basically calling out another company to shine light on your own is a different story. i put in bold a few statements that seems to a bit biased. i actually switched to koni this year from other japanese brands and could not be any happier. i know you have had customer service problems before..especially on other manufacturer forums. so i wouldnt be so quick to jump the gun.

 

Actually, for rates that low, and especially so with those pimptastic SPC UCAs (which are taller than stock), that is probably too low (even 1/4" higher than pictured).

I ran that height with the 400 front rates, and my SPC UCAs hit the shock towers hard and often enough to not only leave dents in the shock towers, but to also bend the knuckles...

Also, a large rear ARB like pictured, mounted so solidly to the subframe brace (looks to be a very thin poly bushing), and attached with spherical bearing endlinks, is going to be rather abusive to occupants on any single wheel road irregularity. There will be no "bushing slop" available to reduce NVH with that setup.

 

This is kind of an interesting situation, and I'm curious to see how the OP gets to the bottom of it. I don't have any personal experience when it comes to Koni/GC setups. However, I've ridden in cars that have had the setup and I didn't notice anything unusually odd about the handling. This has only been a couple of times, however, so this isn't a very valid assumption on my part.

I've been doing my research in the market for a little while now looking for my next suspension setup and I was sort of leaning toward the Koni/GC setup. I guess it's kind of because of the hype. From what I've seen, people have been having great success with this setup, and for some time now. I'm currently using a Tokico blues, combined with H&R race springs, which I have no complaints with as far as handling goes. A bit harsh over bumps but it's expected. I'm also using TEIN flex coilovers and these are quite nice as well, but very pricey. Hope you resolve your situation and I'm curious in the results.

 

you also gotta remeber when taking opions from one person to another.. is that what rides like a caddy for one person might feel like **** to another person