Erroneously.

Yes, this is about you know what...Idiots! Throwing away grip in 25% chunks! When will fools like this evar lern?

Scott, who finally drove again...the other night...a vehicle that lifts an inside rear...a kart...it would appear on the evidence that the less I drive the faster I get...Well That's just Great!

 

 

What a coincidence!

I just came back from Sebring and was uploading all my pics today, and found this one with the very same cars. All I can say is that in the 12 hours I watched the race, cars are keeping all four tires on the tarmac 99.99% of the time, except perhaps when they bounce off the curbs. Or perhaps I need new glasses, and there was some wine and cheese on top of the motor-home involved. Of course, they did race in the dark for a while, and those headlights are so bright, that's almost all you can see. So maybe at night...

And as for the boys in blue, I don't know what they are doing. The cars are so quiet, you can't even hear them shift. They are so fast, they simply redefine "silent but deadly". When the two of them were running together, it was like a bullet train. Very, very impressive cars. Got to talk to their mechanics for quite a while, and that was fun, in French only! And the paddock walks were inspiring.

Falken girls too!

 

Claude,

So frequently we're thinking about the same thing, while making dissimilar observations and reaching opposite conclusions. But I don't want to be doctinaire, so I should mention an idea that "might" have some application. Pretend you're that inside rear unsprung weight...maybe 60 lbs or so...maybe I should ammend that thing I say to something more like "Any Sprung weight on the inside rear could have been on the inside front"...Hmmmm - where does that 60 lbs get carried when it's lifted? Does it do less harm pushing it's inside shoulder against the track lightly? And is that worth the rest of the cornering envelope carrying relatively more of the sprung weight on the inside rear and hence not on the inside front?

Scott, who finds the comparative weighting of unknowns to be vexing but not debilitating..."It depends."..."On what?"..."I don't know."..."Ok."...I guess that's why some people still hold laptime and finishing position to be such important indicators of performance...

 

What you need to do is build a servo-actuated system that shifts ballast around such that when you make a right turn, it dumps a bunch of weight to the right side of the car, thus preventing wheel lift.

Or perhaps with an elaborate linkage system, you can give your fuel tank a roll center below ground, achieving the same effect.

The motorcycle sidecar racing folks do it all the time.

 

Don't hold back...you've given this some thought...post up a conceptual drawing.

Scott, who is almost sure he's got sidecar monkey like Thetans crawling around on his Kaa already...I think they mostly cause understeer...

 

I think your over thinking this whole thing. Sebring is one bumpy *** track. Something is going to lift somewhere.

 

Are you talking to me? You can't be talking to me. That's ridiculous, I would nevar do that.

Scott, who nevar stops thinking...I try to...especially since I heard it's quality and not quantity that really counts...and I so do get tired of thinking about the same old things...

 

Pardon my ignorance, but considering the weight transfer during a corner would the effective grip of the inside tire still be considered 25%? What with the weight transfer also increasing the contact patch of the outside tires during the turn and all. Just curious.

 

No need to ask for pardon. We are only too happy here on the internet to handle this sort of question. Yes, the effective grip is still considered to be 25% despite weight transfer, since it's very simple math indeed (one divided by four is 25).

Scott, who is on a mission to prove he doesn't overthink these things...

 

I wouldn't lay awake nights thinking about it.
Unless you dreaming of this falken girl.

 

Oh I understand that with one of the four tires off the ground then technically 25% of the available grip is gone. I merely wonder if the shrink of the contact patch of the inside tire, due to lack of weight on that corner, is equal to the growth of the contact, due to the increased weight on that corner, patch of the outside tire.

 

slip angles anyone?

 

Ok, I don't want to be too big of a smart ***...I just always make fun of the idea that I've heard from time to time about a lifted wheel equaling 25% of the cars total grip. A couple of books/programs have nice illustrations showing the dynamic load of each corner as bigger or smaller circles depending on lateral g and roll stiffness f/r. Carroll Smith in particular, in one of his little boo boos, mentioned "abruptly yanking a loaded tire up" - something that just can't happen if you think about it.

Not sure about the application of thinking about slip angles to this particular subject. It usually comes up in discussion of how much ackerman to use - less loaded inside wheels grip peak comes at a lower slip angle than the loaded outside wheel. But what the hell, when isn't it a good time to think about slip angles, so lets do it - "Hmmmmmmmmmmm".

Scott, who was actually serious about that inside rear unsprung weight...anybody wanna actually think about it...but don't make any jokes, I might not be able to tell and take you seriously...

 

I would prefer you not being a smart *** as well. I just think this is an interesting topic for discussion.

 

It's almost impossible for me to avoid. As to the topic, glad you think it's interesting. Me too obviously, or I wouldn't bring things up. Another thing about the patches, besides their vertical load, is their shape. I wouldn't be surprised if some of our rules broke down at the boundaries. But about the boundaries - do we believe there is more than a fraction of a tenth hiding in there? If not then far better to lay awake at night thinking about Falken girls instead.

Scott, who thinks that Falken girl in this thread kinda resembles Wonder Woman...maybe if she wrapped that flag around me I would speak the truth about sway barz without conciously knowing what it was?

 

I think if she wrapped me in the flag id spank her extra hard.
Then tell her to do it again!

 

Paul is being a dirty old man, lol.

Also Scott, lifting the inside REAR in a kart? I don't know that I've seen that done, short of bouncing off a curb. Not even sure how that works with so much weight on the back end.

 

I have never had the rear lift in a turn except when you hit a berm while in a kart.
Hitting them is bad for karts.
And yes i am being dirty when it come to the falken girl.

 

Ugh, tell me about it! My first time on an outdoor track in a kart, I go right up on the first curb on my first hotlap and *WHAM!* "****! Ok, can't do that like in a car..."

 

Those Falken girls are strictly about tires. And they comes in pairs. You boys seem to be getting a little confused. You need to re-focus your attention back to the OP's issue: the contact patch. And whether or not you should or should not be lifting the inside rear.

 

I see nothing wrong with lifting those two in the front or the rear.
There is plenty of contact patch to keep me happy.

 

stick around..he brings this topic up about every 2 weeks. lol.


adam. our indoor track has a very tight hairpin. my buddy one night said to me when we got done "hell that was awesome to see you three wheel through the hairpin." i said "no ****?" and he responded "yeah everytime you would lift that inside rear."

so just think me in a "public" kart. a. im short so i hump the gas tank aka weight way forward. b. those karts get worked daily aka beat up and allows for flex. c. hard decel zone into a very "hard" corner.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

You do sit pretty far forward. Still, hard decel into a hard corner is different than the front-lifted 3-wheeling above (which is based on acceleration, not deceleration). I guess the fact that it happens debunks my theory though, regardless of the circumstances

 

you mean you guys dont have snoop dogg 64 impala karts up there? lol.