B20b-swapped db1 will not start.
Car = 1991 Acura Integra GS Sedan
Motor = 1996 JDM b20b(low-compression/P75 head/P75 intake manifold version)
Trans = 1992 LS YS1
ECU = OBD-0 LS (PR4)
Engine Harness = Modified OBD-0 LS(see below for modifications)
Injectors = OBD-0 LS
Fuel Rail + FPR = OBD-0 LS
Distributor + Spark Plug Cables = OBD-0 LS
Starter = OBD-0 LS
Alternator = OBD-0 LS
Power Steering Pump = OBD-0 LS
A/C Compressor = OBD-0 LS
Crank Pulley = OBD-0 LS
Spark Plugs = Brand new NGK R for 1997 Honda CRV
Oil = Royal Purple 15w40
Trans Fluid = Pennzoil Syncromesh
P/S Fluid = Autozone Brand
Some random info that may or may not help...
-I rebuilt the head on the b20b with a Fel-Pro kit prior to dropping it in the car. Isn't the first time I rebuilt a head, and I did use a torque-wrench...but I think I went by OBD-0 LS specs because numerous people said they were the same.
-Trans was rebuilt prior to dropping it in the car, though this obviously has nothing to do with the car not starting, I figured the more info the better.
-Missing clutch-cable bracket, but the ground that connects to it is positioned on the trans making contact...if I move it, the turning-over of the motor slows down. Can't really do anything about this until I find a clutch cable bracket.
-Radiator support-to-valve cover ground was re-positioned because it couldn't reach the valve cover of the new motor. It now goes from the A/C line bracket that bolts to the radiator-support, to the valve cover.
-Thermostat ground is attached.
-MAP sensor plug was extended to throttle body, since the OBD-0 LS motor had the MAP on the firewall by the vacuum solenoids.
-ECT switch plug was extended to thermostat housing, since the OBD-0 LS motor had this switch on the back of the block.
-Oil temperature switch plug was deleted, since this motor doesn't have one.
-All four plug wires have spark.
-Had allen keys in both TDC cam holes, verified that distributor rotor was pointed at spark post #1 and piston #1 was up all the way.
-Cold compression test with throttle closed resulted in 155 - 155 - 160 - 150(4-3-2-1)
-I can smell the gasoline, and I'm pretty sure I heard the fuel pump priming. No way to test pressure.
-Car is currently open-downpipe.
-I checked, re-checked, and checked once more...all plugs/cables/hoses/lines/etc are properly attached except the above-mentioned clutch cable bracket ground.
-No CEL, and ECU does not blink any codes.
-Vacuum line routing...FPR to Solenoid 1, Solenoid 1 to front of intake manifold. Vacuum canister to Solenoid 2, Solenoid 2 to back of intake manifold. Vacuum canister to Throttle Body. Both solenoids are plugged in. This is pretty much the same layout as the OBD-0 LS motor...except the P75 IM has one port on back and one on front, not like the PR4 intake manifold that had both ports on back.
-Gas is about 2ish months old, a little less than 1/4 tank.
-Front of car is on jackstands with front wheels removed.
As it sits, it will turn over, quite quickly, but it will not fire at all. Car started up and ran fine prior to swap. Can supply any other info that may be needed.
Also, do those compression test results seem normal for this motor?
Motor = 1996 JDM b20b(low-compression/P75 head/P75 intake manifold version)
Trans = 1992 LS YS1
ECU = OBD-0 LS (PR4)
Engine Harness = Modified OBD-0 LS(see below for modifications)
Injectors = OBD-0 LS
Fuel Rail + FPR = OBD-0 LS
Distributor + Spark Plug Cables = OBD-0 LS
Starter = OBD-0 LS
Alternator = OBD-0 LS
Power Steering Pump = OBD-0 LS
A/C Compressor = OBD-0 LS
Crank Pulley = OBD-0 LS
Spark Plugs = Brand new NGK R for 1997 Honda CRV
Oil = Royal Purple 15w40
Trans Fluid = Pennzoil Syncromesh
P/S Fluid = Autozone Brand
Some random info that may or may not help...
-I rebuilt the head on the b20b with a Fel-Pro kit prior to dropping it in the car. Isn't the first time I rebuilt a head, and I did use a torque-wrench...but I think I went by OBD-0 LS specs because numerous people said they were the same.
-Trans was rebuilt prior to dropping it in the car, though this obviously has nothing to do with the car not starting, I figured the more info the better.
-Missing clutch-cable bracket, but the ground that connects to it is positioned on the trans making contact...if I move it, the turning-over of the motor slows down. Can't really do anything about this until I find a clutch cable bracket.
-Radiator support-to-valve cover ground was re-positioned because it couldn't reach the valve cover of the new motor. It now goes from the A/C line bracket that bolts to the radiator-support, to the valve cover.
-Thermostat ground is attached.
-MAP sensor plug was extended to throttle body, since the OBD-0 LS motor had the MAP on the firewall by the vacuum solenoids.
-ECT switch plug was extended to thermostat housing, since the OBD-0 LS motor had this switch on the back of the block.
-Oil temperature switch plug was deleted, since this motor doesn't have one.
-All four plug wires have spark.
-Had allen keys in both TDC cam holes, verified that distributor rotor was pointed at spark post #1 and piston #1 was up all the way.
-Cold compression test with throttle closed resulted in 155 - 155 - 160 - 150(4-3-2-1)
-I can smell the gasoline, and I'm pretty sure I heard the fuel pump priming. No way to test pressure.
-Car is currently open-downpipe.
-I checked, re-checked, and checked once more...all plugs/cables/hoses/lines/etc are properly attached except the above-mentioned clutch cable bracket ground.
-No CEL, and ECU does not blink any codes.
-Vacuum line routing...FPR to Solenoid 1, Solenoid 1 to front of intake manifold. Vacuum canister to Solenoid 2, Solenoid 2 to back of intake manifold. Vacuum canister to Throttle Body. Both solenoids are plugged in. This is pretty much the same layout as the OBD-0 LS motor...except the P75 IM has one port on back and one on front, not like the PR4 intake manifold that had both ports on back.
-Gas is about 2ish months old, a little less than 1/4 tank.
-Front of car is on jackstands with front wheels removed.
As it sits, it will turn over, quite quickly, but it will not fire at all. Car started up and ran fine prior to swap. Can supply any other info that may be needed.
Also, do those compression test results seem normal for this motor?
Last edited by socialistic; Feb 16, 2010 at 09:37 PM.
u got spark? u can smell fuel? and u got compression...u may have flooded the motor....take spark plugs out and turn engine over with the ECU fuce under hood disconnected, that will assure ur fuel injectors are not firing....ive flooded motors andhavent had them start on me...
the compression number seem normal for mid miles bottom end...
the compression number seem normal for mid miles bottom end...
Last edited by punkracer; Feb 16, 2010 at 09:31 PM. Reason: noticed u said u have spark...
have u verifyed u got spark? u can smell fuel? and u got compression...so check ur spark... also u may have flooded the motor....take spark plugs out and turn engine over with the ECU fuce under hood disconnected, that will assure ur fuel injectors are not firing....if u have no spark...check ur grounds again...as well as ur main relay/fuses feeding ur main relay...dont know DA off the top but on DC/EG it the back up fuse and number 18 and 24 under dash...
150-160 compression reading on each cylinder, motor is obviously cold due to never being ran since swap, throttle was closed the entire time.
I can smell fuel, saw some fuel puddling on top of each piston when I looked down in to the spark plug holes.
Fuses are all good, main relay had solder re-flowed a year ago so that's good. Car ran and drove 2 months ago before swap.
The only ground that is questionable is the one that goes from under the battery tray to the clutch cable bracket...I need to buy that bracket since I don't have one, because it is missing the ground has nothing to bolt to...it's just laying on the trans making contact that way. If I move it away from the trans to where it's not touching anything, the engine turns over slower.
I tried for over an hour, all it does is turn over...not once did it actually fire or try to fire. Just turning over.
Moved the core support-to-valve cover ground again...no change.
Sprayed starting fluid in intake manifold...no change.
Threw a bolt through the battery tray-to-clutch cable bracket, kinda half-*** bolted in to one of the bracket holes...no change.
Put 5gallons of fresh premium fuel in, reading half tank...no change.
Re-checked spark at each cable and there is spark...no change.
Pulled plugs and checked spark on them, and there is spark, cleaned them even though they're brand new...no change.
Fuel pump is definitely priming when it should.
Sometimes it turns over fast, sometimes slow. Last time I tried to turn it over I seen/heard a spark at the positive battery terminal. Both terminals are tightened to post, both cable plates are tightened to terminals. All cable connections at starter and under-hood fuse box are tight.
Does this sound like a grounding issue? There's three grounds...harness-to-thermostat housing, battery tray-to-clutch cable bracket, and core support-to-valve cover. I'm going to remove the first one and sand the contact area, and try again...if no change, I'll do the same to the other two grounds...if no change, I'll wait until my new clutch cable bracket gets here and hope that the problem was always that clutch cable bracket ground.
Any ideas? This thing didn't even try to fire with the starting fluid sprayed in the intake manifold which is weird.
Sprayed starting fluid in intake manifold...no change.
Threw a bolt through the battery tray-to-clutch cable bracket, kinda half-*** bolted in to one of the bracket holes...no change.
Put 5gallons of fresh premium fuel in, reading half tank...no change.
Re-checked spark at each cable and there is spark...no change.
Pulled plugs and checked spark on them, and there is spark, cleaned them even though they're brand new...no change.
Fuel pump is definitely priming when it should.
Sometimes it turns over fast, sometimes slow. Last time I tried to turn it over I seen/heard a spark at the positive battery terminal. Both terminals are tightened to post, both cable plates are tightened to terminals. All cable connections at starter and under-hood fuse box are tight.
Does this sound like a grounding issue? There's three grounds...harness-to-thermostat housing, battery tray-to-clutch cable bracket, and core support-to-valve cover. I'm going to remove the first one and sand the contact area, and try again...if no change, I'll do the same to the other two grounds...if no change, I'll wait until my new clutch cable bracket gets here and hope that the problem was always that clutch cable bracket ground.
Any ideas? This thing didn't even try to fire with the starting fluid sprayed in the intake manifold which is weird.
Sanded all three ground contact points, as well as the connectors on the ground cables. Added a heavy gauge ground from battery ground terminal to trans. Nothing.
Wire-brushed battery posts and terminals. Nothing.
Listened for main relay clicking, sounds like it's doing its job. Replaced with spare. Nothing.
Removed bleed-screw on fuel line, fuel is definitely pressurized. Can see fuel puddling on pistons through spark-plug holes after turning motor over. All four spark plug cables still have spark. Cleaned plugs again. Still nothing, battery is dead again from trying to turn over so much.
The grounds being bad was my last guess, I'm out of ideas at this point.
Wire-brushed battery posts and terminals. Nothing.
Listened for main relay clicking, sounds like it's doing its job. Replaced with spare. Nothing.
Removed bleed-screw on fuel line, fuel is definitely pressurized. Can see fuel puddling on pistons through spark-plug holes after turning motor over. All four spark plug cables still have spark. Cleaned plugs again. Still nothing, battery is dead again from trying to turn over so much.
The grounds being bad was my last guess, I'm out of ideas at this point.
is there a reason you are running premium fuel? the octane rating of premium is too high for such a low comp. engine. that could be your problem. i ran a fuel injector cleaner which increased my octane rating and sometimes the car would have a hard time starting because of the high octane. try running regular instead of premium.
It did this with regular unleaded(87) in the tank, the premium(89) was added later because I thought fuel level was too low and car being on jackstands caused fuel delivery issue.
Update...It wasn't the grounds, or anything else I thought it was.
Went out there one last time tonight, to rule out the one last thing it could have been.
Let's re-cap...
1. Ruled out fuel issue, because the car wouldn't even start on ether/starting fluid.
2. Ruled out compression, because cylinders read approximately 160 all across while cold and with throttle closed.
3. Ruled out spark by testing each cable, and testing each plug.
4. Ruled out air for obvious reasons.
5. Ruled out timing because I distinctly remember timing it properly.
The only questionable item was #5, I *remember*doing it right but I figured I might as well add that to the "for sure not the problem" list. Sure as ****, I get the piston hand-cranked to TDC and both cams are about 45degrees off...towards the front of the car. Unbolted cams, set them to TDC, put distributor back on, car started on the second try. I swear I remember having that piston at TDC when I installed the cams and distributor...but who knows, at least it's fixed and I didn't bend any valves.
It now starts up instantly, idles around 1000-1100 when cold and 800ish when warmed up. It ran rought at first, which I assumed would happen due to the motor being imported and not ran in who knows how many years. After a minute or two, it evened out and ran like a champ. After about 10-15 minutes of running, it started to run really rough again...will have to look in to this issue. For now I'm just thankful the damn thing starts and runs.
Update...It wasn't the grounds, or anything else I thought it was.
Went out there one last time tonight, to rule out the one last thing it could have been.
Let's re-cap...
1. Ruled out fuel issue, because the car wouldn't even start on ether/starting fluid.
2. Ruled out compression, because cylinders read approximately 160 all across while cold and with throttle closed.
3. Ruled out spark by testing each cable, and testing each plug.
4. Ruled out air for obvious reasons.
5. Ruled out timing because I distinctly remember timing it properly.
The only questionable item was #5, I *remember*doing it right but I figured I might as well add that to the "for sure not the problem" list. Sure as ****, I get the piston hand-cranked to TDC and both cams are about 45degrees off...towards the front of the car. Unbolted cams, set them to TDC, put distributor back on, car started on the second try. I swear I remember having that piston at TDC when I installed the cams and distributor...but who knows, at least it's fixed and I didn't bend any valves.
It now starts up instantly, idles around 1000-1100 when cold and 800ish when warmed up. It ran rought at first, which I assumed would happen due to the motor being imported and not ran in who knows how many years. After a minute or two, it evened out and ran like a champ. After about 10-15 minutes of running, it started to run really rough again...will have to look in to this issue. For now I'm just thankful the damn thing starts and runs.
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