How's it going guys. This just crossed my mind and i'm interested to see what people do...

Do we all heel-toe and rev match without question or are there tracks, moments or situations where you feel that you rather not for whatever reason. Strange and general question, I know but I just want to see what the opinions are from those that do not rev match/heel toe (if any).

I had this discussion with a few friends recently (some of which never heel toe and some that do)

 

there is a fair share of engine brakers out there! where my vw guys at?? they all seem to do it. lol.

 

i know a few down south guys (shane, karl, john) don't rev match.
i do.

 

I heel toe/rev-match on both my daily and my track car. I made this custom gas pedal for both cars. Makes rev matching a whole lot easier when the original gas pedal is 1" thin.

 

That might depend on the situation... long straight and passing someone?
Might not bring out a heel toe response.
But for the most part its see below....

 

^
are those considered toes??

 

all day every day, even did it in my gf's auto accord a few times lol.

 

I dont, and I race a car with a notoriously weak tranny.
Never had a problem and the original junkard motor has 4 seasons on it.
And I usually run up front.

 

I think smooth rev-matching is for the more advanced drivers and one of the final things one should learn.Even some namely pros can not rev match worth a penny.Not only does rev-matching allow smoother and faster entry,it sounds beautiful too and you can tell the driver knows what they are doing as opposed to amatuer clutch dumping.
I have taken driving lessons from several popular professional drivers who promoted different techniques and I must say I have trained vigorously to rev-match an now I can do it while sleeping.I am glad I can do it without thought now as my car reliability and driving has much imporoved because of that.

There are some very important factors in rev-matching,you can be much smoother at threshold braking and thus you can minimize choppy weight transfer,and one is much nicer on the gearbox and the engine as well.I have datalogged changes of .5g due to just letting out the clutch and not rev-matching,why is this a big deal? Well,this eventually transfers to the car in a case of major frontal weight transfer and if the car is not properly setup to take such peaky load increases,then one will spin,can be unstable in staight line braking and/or have a very loose car at turn in.I have learned from my experience and now I am faster.

 

What he said. There are several reasons why it is in your best interests to learn to rev match. Braking stability and driveline wear and tear are just a couple. I can imagine you'll be replacing your clutch more often without it. Not to mention, if you are truly threshold braking, as in using ALL of the tire's grip to slow the car via the brakes, and you add engine braking torque by dumping the clutch without rev matching, you will lock up the front wheels. If you're able to dump the clutch and not lock the front tires, then you're not using you're brakes to their fullest capability. This is a generalization, however, not taking into account trail braking, or corners where threshold braking isn't necessary, but it's a good skill to have in your pocket, and if you can do it seemlessly and without thinking about it, in a racing situation, you'll have the edge on someone who isn't capable of doing it, and will therefore, not be as smooth into a corner.

 

Try not rev matching a rwd car in the wet in a heavy brake zone with any remotely graby clutch. It might not swap ends on you the first time you do it but it will.

 

Curious, how did you manage to do this in an automatic, when you don't have any clutch control?

<--- Been heel-toeing for years, only way to roll IMO. I see only positives (smoothness, engine/trans wear), and no negatives. That does come with the stipulation of LOTS of practice to be proficient at it, as if you can't do it right it just makes any threshold braking area more complicated.

 

I do it in absolutely every situation i can. That means on the street in my winter beater even.
Practice practice practice

 

A very very good point I forgot to mention in my earlier post,that I thought of overnight and just came to post! Good.
In this first clip,I do not revmatch,and if I were braking hard enough I would have locked the front instead of spin.
The second two clips are over a year later.The last clip I am using all of the tire I can, and revmatching as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWmCm2A5EYw

 

Nice save Justin! DANG!

And, personally, I also heel toe, with out even thinking about it anymore (provided my brake pedal is not on the floor from overheating). Its smoother, and more graceful. That generally equals speed in cars like these.

Engine braking is a interesting topic though, is the engine slowing you down? or are you slowing the engine down?
In any of the "advanced" level classes I'd been in, they always talk about two feet in braking being more efficient than otherwise, im still undecided on the matter though.

 

always. even on the streets. its like second nature to me.

 

Just as if one downshifts from 5-4th with using NO brakes..The engine/gearbox is slowing you down,and the size of impact is mainly decided by which gear you are in.Obviously a dump from 5-3rd will be more shocking than 5-4th.Altough I have seen some drivers use engine braking with success, it is still impossible to maximize braking when the revs are too low when you let the clutch out.

I do want to point out not always will one have spins or lock up when not rev-matching.You will just be slower.In my video the case was driver error,I missed my braking point.So in a panic double downshift,the severe engine braking caused the car to snap, as I had some steering input beginning turn in.

 

I heel-toe in racing/track driving. On the street, I double clutch most of the time and heel-toeing just makes the car jerky because I'm never at a speed or braking distance than require heavy brake. I do know some people who don't heel-toe in racing, but still are very fast. But personally, I still prefer heel-toeing.

When you don't h-t (heel-toe, not honda-tech ) and dump the clutch, the tran or the drive wheels have to mechanically force the engine to lose certain rpm's to match the next gear. It creates a shock loading in the tran. The closer the gear ratios and the faster the downshift, the less rpm difference there would be and less shock loading. But even F1 trans that shifts in milli-seconds, the shock loading is still there, not to mention production based cars like ours with wide gear ratios and shifting with human hands.

 

On the track EVERYONE should be rev-matching, if at all possible. If you can downshift without rev-matching, you're not braking hard enough. End of story.

There's a myth floating around here that downshifting is to slow down more. The engine can slow you, but not much. The reason to downshift before a corner is so you can be in the proper gear to put the power down, not to help the car slow down. Make a big downshift on the street. Hell, go from 5th to 2nd. There won't be much slowing, I promise.

Anyway, heel-toe downshifting is a very important skill to learn. I consider it essential when coaching and its hugely annoying when someone is dragging downshifts and both our heads bob around. Just practice on the street. It is considered a big rookie mistake to mess up a downshift when you hop in someone else's race car for a test (or worse, a race), so I do it in every single car I drive on the street religiously to practice.

Someone brought up a RWD in the wet without a heel-toe downshift, here's one. Look at this video about the 1:52 mark. I just got a little flustered with the ABS kicking in so hard and missed the throttle with my heel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTXfG7_XbYk

 

X2!

 

as i wrote that i thought of this video!
(x3)

 

I too am a advocate of rev-matching. However, the way I have learned it some have labled it as "rowing." Basically, if I am going from 5th to 2nd I hit all the gears in between. I was told by a few seasoned (non-Honda drivers) that I should only rev-match into the gear that is appropriate for the corner I am entering. Mainly, if I want to go from 5th to 2nd I do just that: from 5th, push in the clutch, brake to the appropriate speed, then rev-match straight to 2nd. Does anyone have any input on this?

 

 

it depends on your set up honestly. i skip shift from 5th to 3rd, but going 5th to 2nd takes a hell of a zing on the gas. so i'll go 5-4-2, 5-3-2 or just hit them all. there really isn't any advantage. just less stuff to do.

 

I agree. 5-2 is less movement, but more chance of screwing something up. "Rowing" will keep you organized and have less chance of sticking it in the wrong gear.