My trans is a hydro LS. I just found out that all the hydro cases are the same with regard to the LSDs fitting!!!!! The ones that come from the factory with LSD are just machined in the ribbing area for clearance!!! I have posted on this at least 5 times and even was told my case is no good since those ribs were modified. Why hasn't anyone said anything ??? Aquifina? I was about to throw my case in the trash. all I need now is a 4.40 ring gear for an open b-16 cable diff that I have; then I can sell it!

I have a line on a 2001 ITR tranny with a 4.4 lsd. I tested it on my lathe and it is so quiet and shifts so well, I might buy it. Only thing is I thought all 98+ ITR boxes used the larger prelude CVs and have 4.7 difs. This one does not.???? could it have been changed to the normal size b series CV size???? please check the appropriate box:
( ) All 98 spec ITR cases use the larger prelude CVs, They can't be modified for the regular size CVs. All 98 spec ITRs had 4.7 final drives
( ) There is only one size CV spline for all B series transmissions
( ) You are looking at an earlier spec ITR tranny, or a CTR box, and the seller is lying to you or is mistaken
( ) I don't know; I'm not from around here



Can I swap the 5th gears between my LS hydro tranny with the 5th gears on this ITR tranny without probs? please check appropriate box:
( ) yes, the gears will interchange with no modifications: just slip one off and the other one on.
( ) no, the main and counter shafts are different between ITRs and LSs
( ) no, the synchro assemblies are different between ITRs and LSs
( ) I don't work here.


What is the Mini-racers net $ on a set of Mfactory 4.05 final drive gears, and will they fit this ITR tranny LSD unit.???
Answer #1----------------------$
Answer # 2 ( )Yes ( ) No ( ) Dunno; I smoke MY LSD, an I fownd dis borde on axident....droooooll

free ride in my VTEC Mini for all the correct answers! (Costa Mesa, Ca.)

Cheers.

 

Only the JDM '98 Spec has the larger spline. The Euro/JDM '98 Spec ITR's have the 4.785 FD. All USDM ITR's (regardless of year) use the normal b-series spline size, with a 4.4 FD.

Yes, you can swap the 5th gears. All hydro parts are interchangeable (within certain parameters).

Mini-racers price on MFactory parts is the same cost as every other Honda owner. And yes, our parts fit with the oem ITR LSD, as it is 10-bolt.

P.S I've helped build several vtak mini's, so will pass up your offer.

 

The ribs in your case were broken, not properly cut by the person installing the LSD. If it was a trans I was building after someone did that, the clutch housing would go in the scrap pile.

If you replace the ring gear, it needs to be new OEM or else the person you sell the trans to will have problems and likely want their money back.

JDM 98+ ITR's used the 4.785 FD and the large axles. USDM and pre98 JDM ITR's used the 4.40 FD and regular axles.

You can swap 5th gears, but the RPM drop going into 5th is going to be horrid.

There is no special pricing on MFactory parts, and as I already explained to you via PM the MFactory 4.05 FD will fit an ITR LSD.

 

thank you Aquafina and Mfactory, I have been getting a lot of information in the past few weeks from various sources, some of it not to clear, and some that is conflicting. I have a difficult time sorting through it all and getting it straight in my mind especially since I am new to the Honda scene. Re the big drop into 5th, I will probably never get into 5th in a racing situation, so it doesn't matter much. 4th should get me over 130 MPH; anything past that, the car will probably not be stable.

I hope at some point, if someone else doesn't do it first, to be able to make up a COMPLETE and factual chart/book, all in a single publication, showing ALL the physical differences, with specifications and part numbers, in the B series transmission cases, clutch types, diferentials, gears and ratios, shafts, synchro assemblies, cvs, etc; including identification methods, to makes it crystal clear, for EVERY component,, what can, and also, can not, be interchanged with every other component, for all model, year, and market origins, so that there will be no need for further questions on the subject.
You must get tired of answering the same questions over and over again?

So, it looks like I need to go out and get an ITR or CTR box and just swap out the 5th gears so I can get my car back on the road in the shortest pssible time. At some point I will probably get the 4.05 gear set, if the 4.40s turn out to be too buzzy on the freeway. Again, thanks for bearing with me.
Cheers, Steve

Here is a pic of my Mini conversion kit ready to ship to a customer:

 

I only get tired of answering questions when someone doesn't listen.

With the LS 5th and 4.40 FD you'll be at 4,169 RPM at 75mph.

With your 19" street tires it would take 11,200 RPM to hit 130mph in 4th and the RPM will drop 3,978 RPM when shifting into the LS 5th. With the 18" track tires it would take 11,800 RPM to hit 130mph. Regardless of how much you sink into the engine, you will not have any power with that high RPM (aside from making it reliable for road racing).

Since you still have a stock IM I'm going to assume the engine is close to stock, which if its a B16 you'll be ok spinning it up to 8,000 and still keep it somewhat reliable for track use (I'd suggest using better than stock valve springs if you want to take it higher than that reliably). Given that with the ITR trans and LS 5th, on your 18" track tires it would top out at 88mph in 4th and 136mph in 5th.

If you used the MFactory 4.05 FD and a GSR 5th, with the track tires you would top out at 96mph in 4th and 134mph in 5th, and the RPM drop into 5th would be better.

Here are the different RPM drops using ITR 4th shifting at 8,000 RPM.

ITR 5th: 1,846
GSR 5th: 2,288
LS 5th: 2,818

 

^^^ human computer how do you come up with those numbers?

 

http://www.teamMFactory.com/gearcalculator.php

 

Aqua, I think you made a couple mistakes in your calcs. 9,000 RPM in 5th would be over 170 MPH with the 4.4 and LS gears. Here is a text doc that I include in our Kit instructions:

Some interesting facts on gear ratios:

There are several B series transmission and differential ratios to choose from; The 94
or newer Integra LS, RS, GS, have the best Hydro tranny ratio for street use on a Mini;
especially if you are using 10" wheels. fifth gear is .714 to 1 and the diff is 4.27 to
one. Since 5th gear is overdriven, you must multiply it by the Diff ratio to get the
"Effective" final drive ratio. So, doing this with the LS tranny you get 3.04 to 1;
the highest Hydro tranny ratio available stock. This is slightly taller (better))than 3.14
"freeway" ratio common on many US Minis. However, this transmission
does not come with LSD, (limited slip), I used an LSD from another B series tranny but
with a ratio of 4.40 to 1 instead of the higher 4.27. This calcs out to 3.14 to one
"effective" final drive; Exactly the same as I had in my stock Mini transmission before
the swap, and a whole lot cheaper than buying an after market ring and pinion set
for 1500$.

Here are some calculations for this gear combination using 10" Yoko A032 DOT tires that are 60.5" around:

Integra LS 5th gears of .714 with a GSR or type-R 4.40 ring and spur:

800 RPM in 1st gear (idle)....................................3.3 MPH (great for stop/go traffic)
9000 RPM in 1st gear (red line).............................37 MPH

60 MPH in 5th gear.............................................. .3288 RPM
65 MPH in 5th gear.............................................3 562 RPM
70 MPH in 5th gear.............................................3 837 RPM
you can achieve this by installing the LS 5th gears into a GSR or type R tranny.
This results in close-ratios through 4th gear with a big drop into 5th). good for racing

with the close ratio 1st through 4th, and the big drop into 5th will not be a problem
when racing, because any speed past red line in 4th gear would be dangerously unstable in a Mini.

the other way to achieve a long effective final drive is by using the cheaper LS tranny with it's .714 5th
and 4.26 diff ratios. (this tranny does not come with LSD). With this slightly longer combo, your speeds/rpm look like this:

800 RPM in 1st gear.............................................. ............... 3.7 MPH
9000 RPM in 1st gear(red line)............................................. 42 MPH

60 MPH in 5th gear.............................................. ............3184 RPM
65 MPH in 5th gear.............................................. ............3449 RPM
70 MPH in 5th gear.............................................. ............3715 RPM

Just for giggles, 9000 RPM in 5th gear ..............................170 MPH (suicide)

This is a fairly old document, I would be happy to update it with the 4.05 gear set from Mfactory as another excelent option. with a link of your choice.

 

I took my LSD apart again today and took a pic. I was wrong about the gear count and type. There are only 6 straight cut gears(like a planetary arrangement) and I see a section which can not be disassembled (welded together like a convertor on an AT)that probably has clutches inside. Pic:

 

My calculations are correct. You can verify them with any gear calculator.

As I said before, its a viscous type LSD, inefficient sob's.

 

I think we are both correct with our calcs, I believe the difference was that I based mine on 19.4" street tires and the LS 4th gear, and the 5th gear ratio which gives 170 MPH at 9000 rpm. Still barely acceptable rpm at 65MPH with 3562 RPM (4.40 FD)
I see that your calcs show with the GSR 5th and the 4.05 FD. make just slightly higher RPMs at 65MPH in 5th than the above setup, and a higher top speed in 4th(better drop into 5th), but a worse drop from 3rd to 4th which is used much more often on the track that the 4 to 5 shift; so I think it is close to a wash between these two options, and considering I would also need to buy the GSR 5th gears or buy a GSR trans and the LSD to go in it, It comes out a bit mor pricey.
I will no doubt get the 4.05 FD at some point, to go with my LS 5th, just to improve the cruise RPM so I can comfortably move out of the slow lane.
There is one more issue I haven't mentioned; We spend a lot of time in bumper tp bumper traffic out here , creeping along at 2 to 5 MPH, I have an on-off Tilton double disc clutch with more than double the pedal pressure. I need as low a 1st gear as possible in my car to help stay off the clutch pedal. It s very difficult to modulate. I know I don't need the holding power of this setup. a stock honda clutch would work fine. I am using it to reduce rotational and static weight, which is very important to me.

A guy wants to trade his open 4.40 GSR FDs for the 4.7 ITR gears In the trans I am about to buy. Do these interchange?

 

I have added this statement to my Conversion installation packett;

"New option available this spring (09); a company called Mfactory is producing reasonable priced, high quality LSDs and final drive gears for most B and D series transmissions. They have both helical gear and clutch type available and a selection of ratios, including a 4.05!!! This allows you to use a GSR and other transmissions with your 10" wheels. Combined with the LS 5th gears, you get even better cruise RPMs, and more reasonable RPMs with other 5th gear ratios. The Helical LSD is 650$ and the ring and countershaft (final drive gears) are 550$. Top quality stuff too. "

Aquafina/Mfactory; If you would like any changes made, let me know.

 

You say you don't want to mess with it again, and then you say you'll add the 4.05 in later so I'm a bit confused.

You'll need to get a new countershaft 1st gear, bearing, etc if you want to change out the FD on the JDM 98+ ITR trans.

MFactory makes a 3.070 1st gear. You can use it or you can use the 4.05 FD, or both. That or just ditch the twin disc, really no need for it when you can have a regular style clutch that weighs the same or less and be more street friendly and performs as it should on track.

 

that's exactly what I mean. I don't want to mess with it again, but if I am not happy with the results, I will, at some point, change it out for the 4.05s.

The 3.07 first gear is definitely to tall for me. Good for auto X but worse for stp/go traffic and not used in road racing. Have you ever been on a freeway in LA? And I think drag racing front drive cars is, at least, poor planning, starting with an immediate traction handicap.
I realize that the Countershaft will need to be changed; why do I need to change my 1st gear ratio? As you explained to me earlier, The trans I am about to buy is a USDM model because it has the regular CV spline size. What difference would that make anyway; Are the JDM and USDM 1st gears different?
I paid 1600$ for that clutch, flywheel because I thought it was the lightest/smallest I could afford. I had the lightest springs installed, and one of the discs uses organic friction material. Still touchy though. Also, I had to machine up a big, 1-1/6" billit slave cylinder, to get the pedal pressure more reasonable, the master already being the smallest available. Also, I made a special reducer sleeve for the Honda TO bearing, so it would press on the clutch fingers in the right place.
The 7.5" clutch/wheel combo weighs 14 pounds, and most of the mass is concentrated closer to the center than a standard type setup, (lower moment of inertia). If there is a lighter combination, I would certainly be interested; I did a lot of research and didn't find anything. Eventually. If I can afford it, I would like to go to a carbon/carbon clutch which only weighs about 3 pounds and is smaller in diameter; they also modulate very well, but very expensive, as you probably know. Before that, I will be adding Titanium rotors, hubs, and controll arms with aluminum hats to get the unsprung weight down more. This is all just to give you an idea of where I am going with this project. There are no smog restrictions, no class rules; I can do what I want. Sorry, I got carried away.
Right now, I just want to get it out of the living room and on the road, and enjoy it for awhile.

 

The JDM 98+ ITR trans uses a different first gear setup (same ratio as USDM). If the 4.785 FD is OEM, it is JDM. The only difference in the JDM and USDM axles is the JDM 98+ uses 36mm outers versus 32mm, the inners are the same size.

If you're going to be in stop and go traffic you want a taller 1st so you don't have to slip the clutch once moving and stay in 1st versus shifting to 2nd or winding 1st out as much.

 

Jeez, Why can't I get straight information; I asked about this before and was told the only difference in the trannys was the axle spline size. So the splines are the same and now there is a ""difference with the 1st gear setup". So, now you are saying, if it is JDM, I can't put a 4.40 gear in it right? What exactly is the difference so I can tell which it is.
1) Are there any other differences that I need to know about, so I can get on with buying this tranny before it disappears?
2) Is there anything keeping me from using a ring gear (and counter shaft) from an open diff GSR tranny? In other words, are the LSD ring gears the same as the open diff ring gears?
4) Again, Will the LS 5th gears work on the ITR/CTR shafts.
4) Can you PM your phone to me so I can get this cleared up ASAP. I really can't wait any longer.

All I want is a good used Hydro transmission with a Helical gear 4.4 or 4.26 LSD and an LS 5th gear with the lowest cost combination. What would that combination be? (I have the 5th gears as mentioned before), I have been on here over 3 weeks just trying to get an answer to that question. I don't really care anymore what won't work, just what will. What do I need to find to make it happen. Surely you could tell me that in a couple sentences; If there is more than one way, give me the cheapest or easiest, and I will disappear. If that combination is not possible, tell me that, so I can stop wasting our time. Thank you.

Sticking to these, listed in order of importance:
Hydro B
LS 5th
4.4 FD
Helical LSD'
Lowest 1st gear that will work with the above specs.
2nd. 3rd, and 4th ratios are not importantant to me.

 

I've already given you all the answers but here they are all again.

Difference in the JDM trannys is the design of 1st gear, JDM 98+ ITR uses 4.785 FD.

No difference in FD fitment between ITR LSD and non LSD.

Cheapest way is to get a stock USDM ITR trans. You're going to have to buy a new first gear, bearing, etc if you get that trans (if the 4.785 FD is OEM).

Stock 3.23 or 3.07 are your only choices for 1st gears.

 

What about The LS 5th gear fit on the ITR shafts? And I don't see what first gear has to do with anything, I'll just use the one that comes in the tranny, unless it doesn't fit on the 4.40 GSR countershaft. Is that the problem? If so, I'll just use the GSR first gears that this guy has in his box. He will need the same parts from me to make the JDM FD work in his GSR case, correct???

LS 5th fit???
Thanks.

 

Hydro LS 5th fits.

You can't use his 1st gear. CS 1st gear is part of the 1st gear SET. Order a new one from Honda.

 

Hydro LS 5th fits........ OK, got that part; thank you. That leaves just one question un answered. we're getting close to the end here; thank god, Because I type with only my right index finger and I spend about an hour to 90 minutes on each of these posts.
Your Quote:
"You can't use his 1st gear. CS 1st gear is part of the 1st gear SET. Order a new one from Honda"....................Not clear what you mean, and that is the third time you have said order another first gear from Honda, without explaining why. Also, in your answer, when you use the words "CS first gear" and "gear SET" and "new one", I don;t know which ones you are referring to. A new JDM first gear or a new USDM first gear? And which type; the counter shaft or main shaft first gear??? That is 4 possible gears. I could figure it out if you would just be specific about what the problem is. And please don't just say "Different design" again; that doesnt help me figure out what the problem is. There are only 2 problem possibilities:::
1) Either the JDM first gear is part of the countershaft and is not removable, or
2) The JDM first gear is removable, but won't fit on the USDM countershaft.
If you can tell me this I will know what needs to be done.


Lastly, I just talked to the guy that brought the tranny over to my shop before. He said it is definitely a USDM ITR trans that had the std 4.40 gears in it before, and was put together by his friend who works at Honda, using all OEM Honda parts, including the Diff and 4.7 final drive. He drove it afterwords and said everything was working right. No JDM parts, no after market parts. Only prob is the number tag has been removed and covered with a sticker.That also suggests it is a USDM box., (at some point, probably stolen out of a US car) like most of the trannys from around here.

I again remind you of the two possibilities (#1 & 2) Which one is correct?
Thank you.

 

There is no USDM 4.7 FD, only JDM and EDM.

The JDM 1st gear is removable and will fit the US CS, but it won't match the US MS 1st gear and will pit and possibly shear teeth off, which is why you need to use a new CS 1st gear.

 

OK, I think I got it. I need a first gear for the Counter, but I need to make sure it is a USDM, right. Actually, the orriginal USDM 1st gear probably is still in it, with just the FD being JDM, in which case, i would not need a new first gear, Why would he put JDM first gears in it anyway? I think, since the guy works at Honda, he probably just ordered a JDM FD from the factory, and put it in his USDM box, and kept all his orriginal gears; and All I have to do is pick up a 4.4 open gear set from a tranny with a 10 bolt diff, and reverse what he did. I think you are assuming that this trans is a complete JDM unit, Which I highly doubt.

 

The US CS 1st will NOT fit on the JDM 4.785 FD. You cannot order the JDM 4.785 FD from any North American Honda dealer.

Get a 4.40 FD, get a new OEM CS 1st gear, and put it all in with your LS 5th. That's all you need to do.

 

now it makes sense. if you had told me that the US gear wouldn't fit the JDM shaft about 3 posts ago, It would have saved a lot of typing.
Maybe the guy still has the USDM first gear that was in the trans orriginally.
I could also use the 1st gear set out of my cable tranny or my hydro LS tranny.
Cheers.

 

See post #15.

Get a new OEM gear. Do NOT mix and match used gears. Gear SET.