so yes i've searched a bit already and from this i've developed my own opinions but i'm testing my theorys now...

i'm looking to go road racing in an unlimited class (NOT drag) so i need to be able to drive hard for 30 minutes at a stretch without over heating.....stuffing in a full size radiator seems to be kind of a problem so if people know of a good manifold that allows for full a size radiator and a turbo that would be helpfull also.....


any motor.....any turbo.....needs to be reliable over the course of 1 or 2 seasons.....at least a dozen races a year

 

What kind of motor/model do you currently have?

 

Buy a Mustang with a pro-charger...


You can try a built K24 frank with boost, but pushing a boosted motor for that long will require an amazing tune and a great build...


Steve

 

Yea pretty much...I dont think that "cheap and reliable" go hand in hand with "350 horsepower" to be honest. Your going to have to pay to play with that goal of yours in mind. It must be tuned quite well with high quality parts IMO

 

Yep. Doesn't happen. If 350 reliable horsepower was cheap, we'd all have it.

You haven't done NEARLY enough research yet. Keep reading and saving, maybe next season.

 

Right, you're going to need to get in touch with Blueprint Racing and see what they can do for you.


Steve

 

350hp for a road car in a honda is almost worthless. you will have traction and overheating problems the entire time your on the track. personally i wouldnt look to run more then 250whp to stay reliable and have a car stuck to the ground.

 

Agreed with everyone above me ^

 

well thanks for your responses everybody but i guess i should restate myself...

whats the most financially efficient way to 300 or 350 reliable horses.....i.e. what block (and turbo) is best to start with if you were going fully built......i've heard k20 and k24 a lot......is there anybody who wants to convince me that a dart b18 or b20 block would be better to start with

y'all got to understand....i come from the german tuning scene (vw, audi, porsche) and believe me that i'm here because i'm tired of paying big money to go slow.....i'd rather pay medium money to go fast...

10k is "cheap" compared to 20k for a motor build, but i'd rather not spend a full 10k honestly......i'd be willing to come down on my horsepower goal if there was a "breaking point" in the horsepower goal say if it was relatively "cheap" to do 275 but to break the 285 or 300 barrier was twice as much money


and as far as putting the power down......i've seen FWD guys do 300-400whp on a track with a LSD and 235-245mm hoosier tires on a road coarse all day

even still i've heard that over 300 is still pretty hard to use on a road coarse with front wheel drive, so maybe 300 should be my goal....


i'm currently in the process of doing more research, but some guidance as what to research would be good......i don't want to spend 10,000 hours reading up on k-series motors if it turns out that the b series are better for my application.....a lighter motor that sits lower in the engine bay is worth a power sacrifice if i can get my car to handle a lot better in the process...also, i know that with k series motors, i'm going to be starting with more power before the boost, but b series motors seem to grow on trees out here....since i'm going to built it anyways perhaps a toasted b18 would afford me more money for the machining and internals i'm going to buying anyways....


so with all that in mind....any more ideas?

 

this guy seems reliable and says he can get 300 all motor horses for about 5K

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=40210


can anybody beat that with a cheaper block and a small turbo?

 

get a b series engine and turbo it, its the best bang for your buck

 

ls turbo. Probably gonna be your most cost-effective and efficient way.
Edit: Road racing....nvm.

 

I don't think you are in the correct car for road racing "IMO" and three hundred wheel horsepower?? Are you honestly going to be able to drive it for a half an hour at its full potential??

Maybe a Subaru forum would better suite for what you are looking to do, of course its a huge money difference BUT I sure hope your not plannin on putting a 7k 315 wheel civic with no other mods such as the suspension and some big ol tires in the front and think your gonna run a "booster Honda" for a half an hour at full potential...

Smartest thing for you to do would probably buy an STI or something a little more on the same page as to what your looking to do...

ALL IN MY OPINION! No hard feelings

 

Good luck getting that motor to run that way for 30 mins...


Steve

 

you don't have to never mind your comment, thanks for the tip!.....

i'm still researching class requirements but i was hoping i could run in the honda challenge next season, but since they may or may not be in the pacific north west i might have to run in the regional unlimited class anyways and if so i can go turbo....

but if i do H1 i will have to stay all motor.....i don't have to make that decision yet, however, since i'm still sorting out the chasis

 

My cousin daily drives a built GSR that does 380whp. Not just a short drive but from PA to DC most the time or to WVA. So it's possible, I believe he has a half size radiator also. It's only at 380 because the injectors cut out.

 

oh no hard feelings at all.......i appreciate the thought....

the thing is i think everybody is just used to too many goofballs asking silly questions....i have already have a decent suspension kit on it now and i have my eye on a buddy club kit with the bushings and everything in case what i have isn't enough......i currently have GSR brakes on it, but i was thinking of upgrading to wilwood set also...


basically i'm looking to "max out" what a person could possible get out of a civic on a road coarse......get the most tires, brakes suspension and motor you could possibly use on the chassis......if i wind up going regional ulimited class i'm going to be going against corvettes and factory 5s and all sorts of crap....i'm going to need the help

i know it all sounds ridiculous but my racing mentor has a 400whp neon and set a class and a track record last season and won the points series against all the rear wheel drive guys in the same class against the same cars and he's FWD......now i'm not as good as a driver as him, but i do instruct HPDE in 3 different local clubs so i know i'm not bad....

and i don't really mind if i come in dead last, i just want to get out there racing....i've been doing lapping days and HPDEs for 5 seasons and those are
nifty and all but SCCA racing is the next step.....

 

seriously?.....even with a full size radiator?

 

thats bad ***!.....but i know....the radiator seems to be the bottle neck on boosted motors....

i have yet to find a turbo manifold that would allow for a full size radiator....

anybody know of one?

 

Why would you spend all this money and not mind coming in last? Then the last thing to think about is HP. You know your priorities but you want a reliable 350hp? and only have a decent suspension and decent brakes. This is like a drag racers thinking going into road racing. Putt around the corners and drag race on the straights.
Work on the chassis, suspension and brakes and you'll be surprised on how much faster you'll get. Then just go racing and build up your experience before dumping all that money to the motor. Don't expect to run a maxed out motor for the whole season! Yeah, you can run a boosted K20 for 30 mins....question is can you run it hard and consistant for the whole race?
Remember those that can conserve tire and not overheat can win the race.

here's an example of hp(turbo AWD EVO) vs. handling (stock k20A n/a Integra-R (RSX)): Guess who wins w a 15 second lead and cruised the last few minutes of the race. Both are great champion drivers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RitBK...om=PL&index=52

 

What about a stock TSX motor with a SC on it? It'll get you pretty close to 350whp. Heat is usually an issue with SC but if you take the necessary precautions you should be alright.

 

you aren't going to be able to utilize 350 hp in a honda on a road race. it's just not happening. traction is going to be a terrible issue. i would look into something entirely different.

 

Ive always wondered why people can say road race EVOs with 4-600whp are safe but Boosted Hondas are gonna blow up.

I think people are scared to find out. Honestly a built B series with a GT30 pushing medium boost should be fine with cooling taken care of. Conservative timing, healthy A/F...

If THAT is too much heat than Kraftwerks should have a supercharger soloution thats as efficient as a turbo (less parasitic losses than other blowers) and should provide plenty of boost for a 350whp target

As far as power goes the torque should be the real gremlin...you can only put down so much torque through small tires...being fwd its a balancing act but Honda motors rev high...a small bore high rev boosted motor should do fine....say like a forged internal B16 on boost...wont produce huge torque to manage and will rev high enough to make plenty of top end hp.

I know there were quite a few guys road racing boosted B16s with great success...10psi - 300 or so whp and good spool...

Hell Ive seen a 450whp ITR at the 'Ring which is a 12 mile course with no issues.

I just think so many road race guys are NA for the response/budget that the turbo setups are still not as accepted...but eventually to compete with big hp EVOs/STis your gonna need boost...no way around it

 

because road racing is not my only priority with this car....i'll probably only race it 3-4 times throughout the year....i'm sure i'll go to about a dozen lapping days, on the other hand.....i have an EVO IX now and i decided i don't want the expense and complication of racing something so mechanically complex........everything is more on that car.....everything wears out quicker and when it does wear out it's more money to switch it out.....and the skill involved on working on it is tougher too, which is not my forte

this is my first "build" and honda is the platform i wanted to start with...it's funney people say these are bad road racers.....that they are just for the strip but america fell in love with the GTI in the 80s and have raced the **** out of those cars and had a blast doing it.......one of the main honda founders from way back confessed in the press that he had a lot of admaration for the GTI....i see the civic as the GTI improved......the GTI doesn't even have 4 wheel independent suspension!.....but every track junkie i know insists that one of those would be great to build......compared to hondas they are slow and expensive and unreliable but nobody disses on that as an option....in the mean time, while instructing at HPDEs for 4 years i have rode in a lot of track built hondas and i think they are great!......so i'm building one....thats pretty much it......it's not really about winning......it's about the whole package deal including cost and difficulty of owning......my brother in law is a honda master too which gives me more confidence to do the build



oh i agree with the idea that suspension and brakes are more important......but i figured i'd just keep the thread simple and ask about the motor component......i expected people to just say the collective answer......maybe argue about it a bit and then i could decide for myself.......i didn't expect everybody to spend all their time telling me whats wrong with my plan or why i should't try!

as a sub note, i also was thinking 350 since my racing mentor runs 400 in his neon with 235s and he wins races.....i don't see why i couldn't either.....that and also i also mentioned i was considering lowering my HP goals if the cost was radically cheaper.....

my stock evo costs 25k and it's not paid off and it too would need a lot more work to race.......if i get this build all done under 15K and it's cheaper to own after, then this car would be "cheap" to me....which would make me very happy

 

so how does my neon friend run his at 400 HP....

although i do agree with you that it's been often said that there is no such thing as a usable horsepower over 300.......but i've seen 385 HP VW Schricos road raced successfully and the owner says lap times when down as he came up over 300 and dared to buck convention...


even still.....i still might be convinced to come down if people would start talking $$$

i'm not going to pay 7K for a 350 HP motor if i can get a 300HP motor for 3.5K.....i'll just go without for that kind of price difference...i'm also aware that money towards suspension and tires are a factor as well.......

but i don't really know yet since everybody is too busy saying i'm crazy

even still.......i still appreciate the thoughts everybody....i appreciate that people are urging me to be smart about things.....maybe i'm smarter than you take me for