I have a customer with a sleeved 2 liter b18 engine. 89mm LS crank
stock ITR head
Stock ITR TB (we had a 68mm TB on it, but switching back to a stock TB didn't lose or gain any thing)
3" intake
pro 2 cams
250 pound supertech springs
Hytech header
2.5" T1r exhaust



basic run down on the setup

Cams were degreed in here by us. Engine was purchased and assembled by someone else. Car came in running, we swapped in the pro 2 cams (from previous s2stage 2 cams) and put in the stiffer springs.


compression test is 195-195-205-205
leak down was 15-18% across the cylinders.



Anywho,

Just for testing purposes, ignition timing was moved around and timing is set @ optimal levels

removed the exhaust to run open header to rule out the exhaust as a restriction

removed air filter (again, just to check and make sure)

Anywho, this post is more of a what do you think may be a restriction in his setup? I'm really not a big all motor person and all our previous dynos have had ported heads with "better" intake manifolds.

I'm not sure if a stock head will be restrictive to hold it back like that. I am leaning more towards the stock ITR intake manifold holding it back? Any suggestions? I am just not sure what to suggest that he do.

Oh yes, AFR was pretty much 12.8s-13.0 (I didn't want to lean it out more than that since it's a street car)

In my mind, this setup should be an EASY 215 HP setup, but again, I am not sure what to suggest he do.
-Chuong

 

I'ma ask this.. Cams degreed in, if so where were the measurements / Cam gears final settings.

2) a stock TB isn't going to flow with that motor.. your going to need to support the air flow of a 2liter.. which is a 65+MM TB and a good manifold for starters.. Probably going to want to upgrade to a VictorX.
3) Injector setup? Whats fuel psi
4) get a bigger exhaust.


The way i see it.. there's something wrong.. shouldn't be that much leakdown and the varies between the Compression test isn't good neither.. valves bent? or something? Does it smoke..

 

Precision 440cc injectors. Cam gears were set at +5 exhaust and +2 intake. Head was resurfaced twice. The car didnt smoke while on the dyno during WOT pulls.

 

What were your degree marks

your gears sound right.. but if your head was resurfaced twice you'd probably need alittle bit more compenstation.. Was the gears moved anymore or what?

 

With keeping with the rule of thumb of pro2's did you move the gears around anymore or what?

 

No we did not move the gears. I thought by degreeing the cams in, no additional adjustment was needed. Whats the rule of thumb for P2's?

 

1) cam gears were +2 and +5 after it was degreed in. Do you think that playing with cam gears can bring back a 15, 20 hp gain NA? (I want to find the restriction/bottle neck first and then move on from there) If anyone that has any advice/knowledge that adjusting the cams can bring the power level up, then we will try it. Most of the NA builds that I've done we degree it in and have left it there.


2) He understands that a bigger tb would help, but without a port matched manifold, it will not do anything. Changing from a 68mm tb non port matched intake back to the stock 62mm ITR TB gained again, nothing.

Just for discussion, what would what fuel injector setup have to do with making the power? I know an overly huge injector will not be ideal, but honestly I do not see injectors playing a HUGE role in this.

4) on the get a bigger exhaust. The exhaust was eliminated when it was dropped and ran open header which yielded pretty much 1 hp.

Again, this is purely for discussion and not meant as an argument.

 

Both leak down and compression do not look very good.

 

somethings wrong with that motor.. for one.
Your running a 2.25 exhaust. its not 2.5''.. because exhaust are measured by OD. If you dropped the exhaust ona 2.0 and it didn't make anymore power from running a 2.25'' exhaust.. somethings wrong.
The rule of thumb for pro2's is your exhaust is always advanced more then yoru exhaust, just because its degreed in doesn't mean +2 and +5 will be its final place.. it could be +2 and +6 or +7..

somethings wrong with that motor non-the-less.

 

The owner sent me a run file that was done @ a different shop. I overlayed it and here it is:



The engine wasn't assembled by us. But the pro2s definantly make more power below the cross over, but after the cross over, the stage 2s made about the same power....

Anyone think there's a possibility that a vtec pin for the rockers has been missing? (this motor has been running for a while, but just never made the right power numbers) Maybe if a pin is missing then it isn't engaging all the rockers? I've seen what it can do in a turbo car, but in an NA car, I've never experienced that problem...

 

that leak down was on a hot motor?
check where it is leaking too?
and pistons are never said. what is the compression?

i'd say a manifold/TB upgrade and ring it and/or valve job

 

Can you post a screenshot of the low and high cam ignition table.

Leakdown that high is not a good sign, however they are all relatively consistent.

Cam timing sounds good. You can try retarding the intake cam-gear a degree or two and see if that makes a difference. They liked +1I/+5E the best on my 2.0L.

I made 218/155 with Pro2's on my 85x87.2, 12:1, stock ITR IM/TB with similar boltons as the OP.

You can always check the rocker assembly. It is possible that the shop that installed the valvesprings messed up with the re-assembly process.

 

Correct, leakdown and compression test was done as the car got to the shop from driving at least 10 miles. So the engine was @ operation temps.

My leakdown tester is a matco. It's odd though. it only does ~ 45 psi max. I know my friend has a different leakdown tester and he can push 100 + psi into a cylinder.... I wonder if that has to do with the leakdown #s.

I would tell him to upgrade the IM/TB, but I have seen that setup do 200+ on other setups when this one should easily do that. I just want to give him good advice on what to do next or what to check. Any advice is much appreciated.

 

Honestly cam timing was stock ITR timing maps in hondata S300. Distributor was properly synced. Adding timing yielding no gains (so I did not add any more) Pulling timing started dropping power.

 

any idea what the compression ratio is?

 

that doesn't make sense you advanced and made no power.. at all?

 

The owner of the car said that it was an 11.1 : 1 setup. I have no way of verifying that, so I just went with his word on that one.

Serious? This is a quick reference for you per hondata's website....

Like mixture, at first it is best to adjust the whole of the ignition table. With VTEC engines it is a good idea to do this for each cam separately. There are many strategies when tuning ignition timing, but one which works on a near-standard engine is to simply advance or retard the whole ignition table 2 degrees and perform a dyno run. If the torque curve moves upwards, keep adding or subtracting ignition timing until there are no power gains. If the torque curve moves downwards, then apply the opposite change to the ignition table. You should find a point where adding or subtracting 1-2 degrees timing will make very little difference to the torque curve. You may want to find the centre of this point by performing a few runs either side of the point of maximum output. For naturally aspirated engines you can set the ignition timing at the most retarded position which gives maximum power. For forced induction it is more difficult as the exhaust gas temperature and likelihood of detonation have to be considered.[/b]

 

eh, i dont use hondata, i have my own tuning methods..

in the end.. somethings wrong thats for sure.

 

So what do people think at this point would be the most cost effective next step?

I would think a Intake manifold, but maybe the compression/health of the bottom end needs to be addressed ultimately.

 

So, table timing values roughly 28* BTDC @ peak torque?

That isn't too far off. The Pro2'd 2.0L B's I've tuned have all liked timing in the 29-32* BTDC range for MBT, all between 11.5-12.5:1 CR, with one exception at 25* BTDC, but he had a killer cylinder head and intake/exhaust combo, so his combustion events were much more efficient than most.

I think a general assessment of the engines healt is the next logical step. A leakdown of ~18% suggests something is not happy.

 

IMO the compression is to low which is not allowing you to take advantge of the bigger cam. Your leak down numbers are consistant which leads me to beleave its losing compression somewhere. A more accurate leak down with 90-100psi would help and to listin where the air is going

 

You are correct. Timing was 28-29 degrees. Going to 30-31 degrees did nothing. Maybe like 1/4 of a hp gain which to me already hit MBT so no need to advance timing anymore. I had a customer with some good head work also, but has higher compression and his timing was right @ 25-26 degrees also. I really do not think it's in the tuning. I can see a couple more HP being gained MAYBE with cam gear adjustments but this power band is pretty.

I will warranty my matco leakdown tester and see if I can get one that can actually push in 90-100 psi of air. Then maybe it'll be more evident where the compression is going. I just want to help this customer out. His setup hasn't made great power and he's kind of at a loss for it. I in no way claim to be "the best" with NA setups, but I am not an idiot when it comes to tuning Always willing to listen to other's opinions and see if we can help a fellow enthusiast out.

I am not sure if him switching manifold/tb will really help this setup out, but it'd be a good way to rule out something for not a ton of $. A ported head should pick up power also. That's pretty much the main difference between other 220-230-240 whp setups that I've done here. Ported head and a good manifold/tb. I believe his exhaust is good enough for the time being.
-Chuong

 

Ya don't say

 

So did you ever find where the 15% leak is coming from? Past the valves or past the rings?

 

I dunno if your being funny, but that motor has serious problems lol