Hi tuners,

My tuning experience is as follows, Tuned dsmlink on a friends talon, very minimal ecmlink on the same talon "after upgrade" and now my project 2 years old , passed emissions and driven quite a bit now running a H22a "JDM" in a EG civic and boy it's fun! so moving onto my question.


I had my car tuned at Rrev in Portland Oregon "Best bunch of people into import cars I have ever met in my life" and what was basically done was the tuner was doing pulls while I was looking at the dyno output with his advice I was doing the editing of the cells in Neptune and it made 169.6HP 145 tq "which from my research is kinda in the middle of what people are making with that engine"

Greddy Headers "not so great from what I hear" and running a high flow cat... blue box Mario Andretti on the side or something like that, and a Greddy SP2 exhaust. anyway moving on moving on..

So the last couple of days I have been looking at my ignition map, low and high cam map as fuel was already delt with "I have simply smoothed out some area's that seem to change to rapidly" same with the low and High cam maps, so my question really is how do you go about tuning part throttle and what should my values look like? not really numbers but simple advance trends, I tend to shift and cruise around 3k rpm shift at 4k rpm and keep it there most of the time while driving staying on the low cam ignition map.


It seems to me that my driving habits really need to be taken into consideration when adjusting my ignition map as I get some knock in the areas of part throttle low and high rpm.

So looking at the ignition map it seems like the first couple columns 3 to be exact have really low ignition advance values which are the same values for all 3 row's all the way to the bottom.

It also seems like the last 3 row's "high load" are pretty similar as well except when your at high load and high rpm "8k" to be exact.

Hopefully someone would be able to comment on this fell free to post back and I can rephrase anything if necessary.


My intake setup is a Accord full intake all the way to the outside of the engine bay below the front right fender which surprisingly fits very well, it has been exhaust wrapped and the IAT sensor was relocated to about 4 inches away from the throttle body...


Anyway... I know most of these questions are "put it on the dyno and tune it" and all pretty generic questions.. I'm just kinda looking for some generic tuning knowledge if at all possible... I suppose toss out some ideas of what I can try or post a couple screenshots of ignition advance maps for tuned NA engines and I'll try and come up with a conclusion based on looking at "trends" ... 2d map's please of high and low cam...

anyway thanks!

--Aaron

 

bump..

How about some screenshots of ignition maps for low and high cam H22's tuned to run on 92 octane, and not really any internal mods done to them.

--Aaron

 

Post screen shots of your high speed and low speed ignition tables.

 

if you are using neptune, you can datalog in real time and make changes on the fly. The "values" are irrelevant. You simply tune the tables to what the engine wants.

Are you using the stock honda ignition advance or did you turn it off? That has a big effect on the overall timing going to the engine and 9 times out of 10 will be drastically different than what you are seeing in the table.

a stock h22 can take A LOT of timing if the bolt on's allow the engine to breathe properly.

 

The above is correct

 

Hrtuning "OK"
Sander "OK"
Road.head <-- yes there off.

I'll be able to post them here in an hour or 3

--Aaron

 

Hey guys, Thanks for the support so far.

All right, here is what's going on and leading up to this problem.

Jdm H22A "all stock", Removed Butterflies and the bar inside it that holds them, Relocate IAT to Intake pipe, Greddy headers, A real high flow cat "actually passed emissions in oregon" greddy sp2 exaust. other then that all stock.

Started with a gsr base map as per HRTunings advice a while ago, adjusted fuel after setting base timing which was way off "on the dizzy" adjusted low cam fuel map to get the car to idle right. "drove it around town for about 3 months pre 5k rpm "NO VTEC"

this is when the car passed emissions "after I installed a new cat"

Took it to get tuned put down 169.6hp 145 tq ... kinda on the low side of things... I think?... anyway after the tune it got warm outside and this is where I'm at now when I see small issues, we never really touched the area of the map where one would be when cruising, generally only 3rd gear pulls to get the final ignition value... and honestly I don't think we spent enough time fiddling with high cam ignition... "tuning is spendy ****!"... alright I think i covered enough on where I'm at now so here are the photos.

Road.Head --- I'm aware I can make on the fly changes "I tend to do this all by myself so driving and tuning don't work right.. I'm sure you didn't mean exactly that but we are on the same page"


Sander, and to the others helping,

here are the 2 screen shots, the 01 jpg is exactly what the map looked like after tuning it, then after I started noticing problems when it was warm I started making corrections on my own.


02 jpeg is simply me "not in the car" looking at the ignition map manually and smoothing out problem area's to avoid any drastic ignition changes and bump's.. I have not done this to low cam fuel or high cam fuel but I plan to quite soon. FYI it was tuned to I believe 12.8:1 AF under heavy acceleration.

Other note, the Iat correction window, I believe I had a question about this a while ago and a photo of how I have it setup should explain it, from 100 degrees to 140 I have -4.00 put in the cell... which I'm guessing will take -4 degrees out globally if iat ever gets to 140... which is a miracle if that ever happens, someone suggested a rise 10 degree F = -1 degree taken out of timing, I had guessed this value and it helps a bit.

This morning I did notice slight knock at 5k with iat 67 degrees and ect around 180 with map2 loaded FYI.

Information overload I know.

--Aaron

--Added my fuel map currently "I dont believe I have saved IAT correction on this"

you know 3d map in addition to the 2d map would be REALLY handy.

 

and you've forgotten to mention your base timing, even though you mention it's "way off"

3D would not be any help in this scenario.

The screen shots are too small to read.

The last 3 on your IAT ignition should say 100 0 140 -4 250 -4

 

Honda tech re-sized them for me :\ Not what I was expecting, base timing is 16*.

I feel it would help using the 2d view I notice lines are overlapping each other and its hard to distinguish which line relates to what. "But hey still learning"

I can email them to you if you like.

--Aaron .. I'm at work now and don't have the option to access imageshack.

 

3D doesnt help, its just a "nice to look at" kind of thing. I dont find it helpful at all. 2d works very well, and yes you have some overlapping lines you need to take car of. Highlight each load column in your map and then click 2d, you will see the entire line highlighted and then you can straighten it out as necessary. Or if you like to do it the other way, click one of the boxes of the crossed lines and then go back to normal map view and see the highlighted box and make your correction. Start by smoothing out the lines.

 

Hi,

TurboChruch, yeah I understand the whole non overlapping lines thing, which I can see happening here. I'm looking for what other people have set in there h22's.. I know this is weird request and all engines are different, but i want to know how my values stack up against others so i know if i'm way off or close. ... the curves might be slightly similar.. From the looks of it it seems like the first 3 columns with low map pressure's "no load" are going to all be identical from 0 rpm to 8k ...

This is where a 3d map would help you would see all 3 areas separate even though they are all overlapping in the 2d map. in my mind its just a different way to see the data.

--Aaron

 

You can split the screen between 2d and table making both viewable. When you click on a 2d point it's highlighted in the table.

If your base timing is 16 and you have it set to 16 in preferences, why does the map have completely different numbers when I open it?

 

Probably because our prefrences are set differently..

Edit, Preferences, Main tab. "Mine is set to 25" for some stupid reason which is the modifier.

So Id imagine if you take that map the low and high cam map and add 9 everywhere you should have what I have.

 

That's actually labeled Base Timing for a reason. If your base timing is 16, it should be set to 16. If you decide to set it to 16 (Since that's your base timing), you'll see that the timing you're actually running, which is much less than you think.

 

very informative thread. bump for more screenshots.

 

EDITED. Not the same map as quoted in post #18

 

You are not understanding the concept of ignition timing, your ignition map is absolutely wrong.

You sync your ignition timing at the distributor to the engine management system.
I.E. You lock your timing at 15 degrees on your h22 motor with your engine computer & simply set your distributor timing to 15 degrees.

You then use the engine management system to tune the ignition parameters. Preferably on a dyno.

 

You are not understanding how an ignition table works. The reason for syncing the ignition timing between what the ecu is outputing and what the engine is actually seeing is so the ignition tables will match what the motor is actually seeing timing wise. You run a certain "base timing" as it's easier to sync timing with a certain value. The stock honda crank pulley on a b-series for instance has timing marks for 0,14,16 and 18*. If you dont have an advance timing light then you can just set your base or sync timing value too one of those that will still keep the engine idling and sync the timing. Technically you can sync your timing by just cranking the engine over and locking timing to a certain value and checking it with a timing light.

If you have your timing maps the way you have them. You will be running 5* of timing at full load(N/A application here). Which is very retarded. The only way that you would have a good timing map is if your off by 16* from your sync timing advanced. So if you synced your timing at 16* the motor would actually be at 32*, when checked by a timing light.

 

ah...I see. So your saying that just because my base timing is 16*, that does NOT mean that it's adding ANOTHER 16* on top of everything else? So basically, since I can't adjust my timing by the distributor (obd1 H22 dizzy's you can, but the OBD2 H22 dizzy's are locked into place) all I do is, get a timing light out, see what my base timing is set to from the distrubtor, and then whatever THAT number is, lock it into my software, and then tune from there. Is that correct? The only question I have is then, why does it run so good? It runs just like the stock ECU. If I advance any more, I can hear detonation.

So if that's the case, what about when my scanguage was reporting the stock ecu putting out 21* at WOT? does that mean it was 21 degrees total timing? or 21 degrees on top of the base timing...I'm still a little confused. Here is one of the videos of my stock ECU that I used to build my map off of. I start WOT at about :21

 

You are over thinking the ignition timing process.
Your "scanguage" could have been seeing 21 degrees of base timing on the stock ecu because you did not "lock" your stock ecu's ignition timing output to a value such as 15 degrees.

Set your ignition timing as I instructed you to, and put the car on a dyno to tune.
Use the stock AEM ems calibration as a reference on where to start for ignition tables.

 

There isn't a way to lock the ignition timing with the stock ECU that I know of. Whatever it's at is what its at (since the distributor is unmovable) I'm still confused as to how the base timing affects the actual ignition map. AEM's map come with the base timing set at -17*, but I know that's not correct. In the Prelude manual, it says base timing is 15* +/-2* @ idle (700rpm) but according to the scan gauge that reports actual ignition timing, it says its around 8* - 10* @ idle. What I'm not understanding is, why does the manual say that the timing @ idle should be 15* +/- 2*,

but then the actual value at idle is 8*...?? I'm sure I'm over thinking this, but this is something that I've been wanting to understand for a while now. Thanks so much for your responses so far!!

 

15 degrees plus or minus 2 degrees aka 13 or 17 is what base timing should be on a stock motor with a stock ecu running at normal idle rpms with the service connector jumped.
Don't use your "scan gauge". Use your timing light & engine computer as advised before.

AEM's map doesn't come with base timing set at -17, atleast any I have pulled up.
You must have modified the file & not noticed... I don't know where your getting your ideas or figures from.
You may want to delete your previous posts so you don't confuse people that need accurate data.

As I said before, go to configure, set timing, lock timing to 15 degrees. Make sure your ignition timing is reading 15 degrees, if it isn't adjust it using the AEM or distributor etc..
This is called "syncing your ignition timing.

Anyhow, If you continue to have questions, start your own thread with them. We have taken over someones thread here which isn't ideal for them.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I will edit my posts with a correct map.

AEM's "1040 Prelude-Accord Map"


My map (Honda's ignition values straight from the H22 Prelude ECU):

 

That is not the correct map. Open the file 1040 Prelude-Accord.V1.19 for a reference of what a stock ignition map should look similar to...
What calibration are you opening ?
What software version are you using ?

 

That^ is the map that I made using the numbers straight from the stock ECU. (Honda's ignition values.) I copied Honda's values and entered them into the appropriate load/rpm cells into AEMTuner. I trust honda's ignition values over AEM's map that they probably threw together in a hurry. Here is what their ignition map looks like.


that^ is AEM's "1040 Prelude-Accord" map straight from their calibrations folder in program files. See the difference? When I was first learning to tune I tried using AEM's map...it would hardly run my car. I've found my maps to be much more accurate, especially after copying Honda's values. Far better than AEM's "guess map" IMO...