I know its common and not necessarily considered bad, but anyone care to discuss lifting the inside rear tire like this.



Is it best to keep all 4 wheels planted?

I just believe its a valid discussion.

 

i wish i had a good answer but i know some one will have a better one...

the good from my opinion
less rolling resistance taken from turning
i would say more of turning angle for tight turns
more weight on the adjacent wheel to keep from understeer
i would prefer 3 wheels in a turn rather then a bunch of sway and body roll


the bad from my opinion
loosing traction
might give a bit of a under steer depending on weight balance
a lot more stress on the adjacent suspension components
harsh on the bolts and threads if its not suited to handle



thats what i could think up for now hopefully someone has a better answer lol

 

rear sway bar = 3 wheel motion

 

I hate it and try to get more front roll resistance to avoid having it as much as I can. It is hard to dial in a set-up that rotates but doesn't lift too much...if anyone have inputs on how to achieve it. I run 2 SB and rear biased SR.

 

I'm just wondering why you hate it?

Personally I don't car if i'm on three wheels, and been told I lift a rears with almost any turn. All I care it that the car handles GREAT!

 

I run a 24mm ASR rear swaybar and I lift a rear tire almost every hard turn. It would lift before I installed the bar, but not nearly as much. I get people(mostly old musclecar guys) telling me that it's bad because I'm losing grip from 1/4 of my tires...but I just look at it as it's also putting that much more force down on the other 3 to grip. I have no compaints...I've made people actually hurt to be in my car under hard turns. So 3 wheels...4 wheels...it still does it's job very well.

 

based off load vs grip graphs, when weight is transfered the total amount of grip the tires are producing is decreased. But moving the load to the front tires helps with rotation. I dont know if the benefits outweigh the cost lol. My .02

 

To catch that much air, to me, it was starting to take loads off of the inside front.

 

This is the responce I was looking for.
I am running pretty high spring rate in the front (12k) and avg rear spring rate (10k)
Stock civic ex 21mm (?) front bar and 24mm asr rear bar.
225 R1R on 7.5 rim

I can feel the car teeter when the rear lifts, I feel that I am achieving maximum grip when it is just about to lift or light lift.

Currently I am running too much (2 deg )negative camber in the rear and think I may have too much grip in the rear. Front camber is in the -1.5 area.
Using stock upper arms front and rear.

 

I wouldn't worry so much about the lift but focus on the overall handling of the car. Once it gets dialed in right. The wheel lift will work itself out. But its a front wheel drive car. Its gonna lift inside rear for the most part.

 

I agree!

 

its all about two wheel motion lol

 

IMO it's a bad thing. For many reasons.

But the most important thing is that you like how the car drives.


As soon as i get my car back on track i'll be doing some testing concerning this.

 

Sometimes I get a wild hair and drive on two wheels. Kind of fun!
Once I drove on one wheel.. No wait that was a motorcycle (doing a wheelie)

 

It feels very non-linear (lifting and dropping) depending on the track...but I guess that as long as it's not upsetting the car...and that the car feels ok handling wise...it is acceptable.

 

From a Mark Ortiz newsletter - "Since a front wheel drive car is nose heavy,it must be set-up to work the front tires as evenly as possible.That means it must corner with the inside rear tire very lightly loaded or slightly airborne.We trade lateral grip at the rear,to gain at the front where we need it.Once the rear wheel has lifted,the rear suspension has contributed all it can to anti-roll movement.So any further roll resistance will need to come from the front.Beyond that point,rear load transfer is already 100% and front load builds very rapidly,any more will only cause more roll angle and more understeer."

So to me at the point of rear wheel lift,one has all the traction that the front tire compound can provide.Thus if you would need more steering beyond that you need to make the car rotate via stiffer rear springs or rear toe adjustment. One can not gain more front grip beyond that point unless they add wider tires or increase downforce(which is useless at low speed if that is where one has understeer.).

To me flatter/less roll is better.In testing for my particular H1 car(thanks to bernardo's setup advice),I discovered I was 3 wheeling/teetering horribly and had bad low speed understeer once the wheel lifted,and going stiffer in front to reduce that lift actually gave me more front grip! The car is more stable,stays flatter under extreme loads and drives better.The car still gets very light on the inside rear but doesnt lift quite as high as when it drove bad.This is another highly advanced topic however and I won't drift off the OP.

 

The car does set down and turn well, more grip than rotation though.



I would like to get a GoPro video camera and see what the suspension is doing but currently funds are low and spectator still shots are all I have to go by.

I don't plan to currently change any parts before the next race other than reducing the rear camber in hopes to promote more rotation. I have a bigger suspension techniques front bar but from what I gather it will increase under steer, and stiffer rear springs do not seem necessary, or am I wrong? I do also have a set of 14k (8k/10k/12k/14k) I can try moving things around.

I am not really unsatisfied with anything how it is now, just trying to make every event in my areal is my main goal at this point. Oh and trying to learn along the way.

Thanks Guys!

 

1. 12K springs in front are not heavy. That's less than 700lbs, and should be roughly your starting point.

2. You say you're not unsatisfied with anything currently. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Basing everything off one picture of your wheel 2-3" in the air isn't doing anything for you, or helping us help you. If the car understeered/oversteered/twirled like a ballerina, then maybe we'd have something to go off of My guess is that you need some more wheel experience before the differences would really be apparent to you. I don't mean that in a bad way at all.

There are some general (though sort of complicated) ideas with respect to lifting that inside rear. The Mark Ortiz article JW quoted touches on that, and I know Jimmy and Wai have the right idea. There have been a few GREAT discussions on this in the past year or two, but they're buried in threads that started out as something unrelated. Search for "suspension" in the RRAX forum and see what you can turn up. If you want technical detail, that's where you'll find it.

 

Good to Hear
I understand fixing a problem that is not there is tough, even with a picture or two on Honda-Tech. Haha
I have been attending events 3 weeks a month getting as much seat time as possible. Not many FWD guys in my area that run much more than stock cars, so I'm turning here with my experiences.

Thanks for the "tip" I will dig up what I can

 

****. My front springs are wrong then

 

A very important thing to remember about setup is that every single one of us is working around a set of rules/limitations.

Like the stock class FWD autoXer, do things VERY differently then say the STS autoX guys. And those guys are going things VERY differently then say the SM guys.

Same goes for the RR guys, the SS guys do things differently then the T2 and T3 guys, and they do things differently then IT guys, and HC racers do things different then all of them.


My gut says you have to much rear camber and not enough front. Pretty typical on a EK.

See if you can get a fellow competitor to let you borrow/use his pyro so you can see what your temps look like after a run, and in return you will take his temps after his run.

 

Im not trying to be a *****, honestly. Do you mean too much negative camber in the rear and not enough front? I just need some clarification.

 

haha

No you are correct, my semantics are off.

It is very typical to hear at the track "you have too much camber." (and this means a negative number more integers away from zero) and "you have too little Camber." (and this means a negative number less integers away from zero)

 

Yeah I wasnt trying to argue semantics, haha.

Is there a good range for camber, or is it dependent on a multitude of things. (Tires/Ride Height/Spring Rate...etc)?

 

who cares if the wheel is in the air? i mean if u cared for ur car soo much dont race it ....