I have a 95 Civic that I put a Powerslot BigBrake kit on all four wheels some time ago before it was turbo'd. Now, I have 17" rims all the way around which doesn't make for very good traction on such small sidewall tires anymore.

The smallest I can go because of the brakes is 16" rims. Is there anything I can do or should do to fit good tires under there aside from replacing my Powerslot kit?

If I have to replace the front Rotors, which ones should I get that are high performance and will fit under 15" rims? I'd prefer to keep my back 2-piece rotors that have black hats, so I'd like the fronts to match if possible. Btw, I use Hawk HPS pads.

 

There just aren't very many drag radials or slicks in 16" size. It's a basic fact of life.

Another basic fact of life is that wheel size is not a big factor in performance, other than the effect of tire availability. If you are not getting good traction in 17" tires, it's probably because you are using tires that are not very sticky, and NOT because of the short sidewalls. Are you using drag radials (such as the BFG in 205/40-17), or only a street tire? Don't blame the size if you're using tires that aren't very sticky.

How do you use these tires? Are they for the dragstrip, or for the street? For the dragstrip, get an extra pair of wheels for whatever tire size you can find.

For the street, you're not going to want to use drag radials or slicks anyway. The only really sticky street tire in the 16" sizes that are best for your car - 205/40-16 or 195/45-16 - is the Falken Azenis RT-615, which you can get in 205/40-16.

 

I guess I'm just "preparing". Currently I have some Nitto NeoGens on there now, but they're old and are going to need replacing. Now especially since I have 330whp I wanted to make all of the changes at the same time... wheel size, tires, & brakes changed if necessary.

To answer your question... I use the car "mainly" for street driving, but will do Autocrossing all summer with a drag strip thrown in once or twice a year.

I just wanted some better availability for better tires and I know that 15" rims had more selection, I just wanted to avoid wasting the money I spent on my big brake kit if at all possible.

 

Well, the problem you run into is that no one tire does everything well. You can get tires that do one thing particularly well, or tires that do a bunch of things okay, even though they don't do any one thing exceptionally well. And that's what you have with the Nitto NeoGen, as is typical for all-season tires (which the NeoGen is). If you have to get only one tire, that you're going to use for daily driving in snow as well as warm weather, and also in autocross and at the dragstrip, you're really stuck with all-seasons, because anything stickier is not going to grip well in snow or cold weather. You can use them in autocross and at the dragstrip, but they won't do all that well at either one.

If you have another set of tires (or another car) you can use for snow and winter weather, then that gives you the opportunity to get summer tires, which you can use nine months a year on the street, as well as for autocross and the dragstrip. The really sticky summer tires, like the Falken Azenis RT-615 I mentioned in 205/40-16, can do a nice job at all of those things (not counting snow/winter use though). The Azenis isn't the longest-lasting tire; they'll typically last 10-12K miles. But they'll still last longer than drag radials or slicks (neither of which will do well in autocross, either).

If for some reason you do decide to swap back to smaller calipers to permit 15" wheels, there are a couple of very sticky tires you can get in your 195/50-15 size - the Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 and Toyo R1R. Both will stick even better than the Azenis, and last a bit longer, too (maybe 15-20K miles).

If you decide you want tires that last longer than either of these, you will have to trade off some grip in exchange. If so, you can get some other summer tires in 15" and 16" sizes; my top pick would be the Yokohama S.drive in 195/50-15 or 195/45-16. If you have to use them in snow and winter too, then you will be stuck with an all-season, and its lower level of performance in moderate to warm temperatures; you can get another set of NeoGens or the Kumho ASX in 205/40-16.

 

I guess I didn't mention that this car only get driven in the summer. So cold weather snow is not a concern.

I thought the tire size of choice for 15" rims was 205/50R15?

 

the nitto nt01 comes in 205 40 17

 

Thanks, yeah I see that... hmmmm.... I thought that the larger the sidewall, the more sidewall forgiveness when launching = less breaking stuff. That's kinda why I was straying away from the 17" and 16". Am I on the wrong track here? Should I just go with a really good sticky 16" or 17" tire for street driving and autocrossing (which I'll do more of) than worrying about the occasional drag day?

In that case, what do you guys think of the Nitto NT555 vs. the Falcons Azenis?

 

No, not on a '95. 195/50-15. 205/50-15 is for '97-00 Civics (and some '96).

The '95 came from the factory with 175/70-13 (or 185/60-14) tires, and 195/50-15 is the best matching size (also 205/40-16 or 195/45-16, for 16" wheels).

205/50-15 is sometimes used on a '95 Civic for kinds of tires that aren't available in 195/50-15, such as drag radials and R compound track tires. But 195/50-15 is a better match, won't reduce acceleration, less likely to rub, keeps the gauges accurate, etc. So it's a better size if it's available in the kind of tire you need.

The NT-01 is not a street tire; it's an R compound track tire. Which means it has a lot of downsides when used on the street: short treadlife, high price, need for warmup to reach its performance potential, etc. Use track tires on the racetrack, street tires on the street.

Yes. The big factor in performance is the tire model and its design, primarily the compound and tread pattern and internal construction. Sticky tires are stickier, regardless of size, and less sticky tires are less sticky, regardless of size.

It's up to you what you want to optimize. For example, if you wanted to get three different tires, one that's best for each application, you can get longer-lasting summer tires (e.g. Yokohama S.drive) for street driving, autocross tires (e.g. Hoosier A6) for autocross, and drag radials (e.g. BFG Drag Radial) for the dragstrip. But obviously that isn't very practical, since it would require three sets of wheels (or constant re-mounting/re-balancing of tires). So you can pick one kind of tire and use it for all three applications. The "supersticky" tires are a nice compromise - they don't last quite as long as the longer-lasting tires, but they last longer than autocross tires or drag radials, and they'll do pretty well for autocross and drag racing too.

Nitto makes three tires with the NT555 name, and I don't think any of them is a good compromise for all the ways you will be using them. The NT-555R is their drag radial; it's a good drag radial, but it has all the downsides for uses other than the dragstrip. The NT555RII is their R compound road racing tire, and again, it's not suitable for street use. And the NT555 is a longer-lasting street tire that won't give you as much grip as the Falken (not Falcons, LOL) Azenis RT-615.

 

This has been the most unbelievably informative post ever. Thank you so much for sharing you wealth of knowledge. I was afraid to post on this site anymore because of so much flaming... thanks for renewing my faith in the Honda community.

LOL about the Falcon vs. Falken... sry...

So, some follow-ups...

My stock size was 185/60R14. Currently I run 205/40R17 and don't have any rubbing issues lowered 1.5". However, I do have completely upgraded suspension including Anti-sway bars and tie bars, etc, etc... Also, my guage doesn't seem to be off too terribly much.

So I was looking at the tire size calculator on the Miata site and was putting in the different sizes you and I were discussing and there doesn't seem to be "that" much difference between them all. At most like 2-3% difference in rolling ratios. I do see however that the 205/40R16 & 195/45R16 are much closer to stock diameter as you say.

http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

If I were to go with 16" rims, I think I'd prefer to go with the 205/40R16 for more rubber on the road, but they have the same sidewall size, so I might as well just keep my 205/40R17 size so I can keep the rims I have (other than they are getting a little beat up after being on there for so long and I'd like to find some that are lighter too. Now I'm even more confused!!! Dammit!

Man... this thread has taken a little different direction than I was expecting... It just goes to show when you think you know something how very little you end up knowing....

Thanks again.

 

Any thoughts on my follow-ups? I promise, they are the last of the questions...

 

I'm happy to answer as many questions as you've got. I just didn't see any questions in that last post.

If you want to stick with your 17" wheels, you have a couple of options. 195/40-17 is actually a better size for your car, but there aren't a lot of tire options in that size. There are some "max performance summer tires" - the Continental ContiSportContact 3 and the Pirelli PZero Nero - which will give you better performance than your NeoGens, but they're not quite as sticky as the "supersticky" tires, sometimes called "extreme performance summer tires", none of which are available in 195/40-17. If you don't rub with 205/40-17 and you don't mind the other downsides of oversized tires, you can get the Falken Azenis RT-615 in 205/40-17. I believe that's the only "extreme performance" tire available in that size.

 

Okay.. thanks... I don't care how long the tire lasts, I want a good sticky tire that I can use in the twisties on the streets, and during autocrossing. I'm going to forget about the slicks and DRs for now.
I have to figure out the trade off 16" vs. 17" now.

* 205/40-17 = small sidewall, doesn't rub, slightly heavier, looks nice under fender, limited selection....
* 205/40-16 = same size sidewall, won't rub, slightly lighter, closer to stock size, won't look quite as good under the fender, ??? selection....

Are there any other "extreme performance summer tires" that you can recommend so that I may do more research on the sizes that are available?

And lastly, do you feel that the tradeoff of having a 195 series tire (with less rubber on the road on all 4 tires) overrides that the 205 series are a little larger than stock, even if I don't rub? Will my acceleration be "that" much better if the tire is only marginally smaller (closer to stock size)?

Thanks again. You've been a HUGE help!

 

Yes, there are quite a few such tires. However, most don't come in smaller sizes for big wheels. If you didn't have a big brake kit, you could otherwise get 15" wheels with 195/50-15 tires. The Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 and Toyo R1R are both extreme performance tires available in 195/50-15. There are lots of other such tires (in addition to the RT-615, RE-11, and R1R, they include the Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec, Kumho Ecsta XS, and Yokohama Advan Neova AD08) but they don't come in the small sizes that your car needs. Over the years, newer cars have come with bigger and bigger wheels and tires, with bigger and bigger wheel wells to fit them in. And you have exacerbated the problem by combining big brake calipers with your car's (relatively) smaller wheel wells, thereby ruling out the 15" choices. The Falken Azenis RT-615 is the ONLY such tire available in 205/40-16 or 205/40-17.

First of all, you have the same amount of rubber on the road with a 195 treadwidth tire as a 205. The amount of rubber on the road - it's called the area of the "contact patch", in tire lingo - depends only on the pressure in your tires and the weight of your car, assuming the tires are normally inflated to support the car. For example, if you have a 2400-pound Civic and you inflate all the tires to 32 pounds per square inch, the area of the four contact patches will total 75 square inches, regardless of whether you have 165-treadwidth skinnies or 225-treadwidth steamrollers.

The slight advantage of wider tires is due to the different shape of the contact patch, wider side to side and narrower front to back, even though it has the same size. But you'll never notice a difference of only 10 mm. You probably won't notice the difference in acceleration, either. The biggest downsides are if the tires rub - which can be a serious safety problem - and, to a lesser extent, the error it introduces into the accuracy of your gauges.

 

Well there ended up being a deal on some Azenis 205/40-17 for $68 in my area so I'm going to pick up those for now while I still have these 17" rims. Maybe down the road when these rims have finally seen their day, I might move down to 16's.

I never knew that "contact patch" stuff, I didn't understand it at first, but I get it now after some thinking about it.

Last question... HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT ALL THESE TIRES???

 

I get to drive/ride on a lot of different tires by instructing at racetrack events.